Abuse of Referees

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119565983#Comment_119565983

Lol, it's not nice money, not for an adult, you'd call it money if you were 14.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567277#Comment_119567277

€350 on top of the dole ain’t bad. Lol.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567289#Comment_119567289

350, sure even your mother wouldn't do much for that and they have to put in a lot more time and effort.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567254#Comment_119567254

You need to read it again. You’re not getting it. I’m talking about the causes of abuse. That could be anything from a bad decision to mental health issues even alcohol and I’m saying that assault is totally unacceptable. But you have to examine all the causes and address each issue . Even that won’t stop referee abuse.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567319#Comment_119567319

The only cause of the abuse is the people that abuse the ref. All the other stuff is simply an excuse as to why they chose to abuse the ref.

But it doesn't make it right. Or acceptable.

Until people accept that they are the cause, rather than the myriad excuses they concoct, and until such time as it is made unacceptable by dint of fines, suspensions and club suspension, it won't change.

Talk to the ref before the game, at half time if there are issues and if something serious occurs *constantly missing a particular type of foul etc) report it.

But don't start screaming from the sideline. Don't allow your players to disrespect the ref, or the supporters.

Would players accept a ref abusing them if they put a shot wide? Calling into question their parentage, asking if they were playing for the other team? No. But but for some reason it seems entirely acceptable to abuse refs.

This incident is only getting noticed because its physical and on camera.

Clareman

Watching Match of the Day, they are talking about a league where over €2 billion was spent on players this summer, and they are talking about referee mistakes AND that's including VAR. Humans make mistakes no matter what, but if assault is the reaction to a mistake in sport then the guards need to get involved in my opinion.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567677#Comment_119567677

And that will stop it how? Not a chance of that stopping it. Years ago in Wicklow there were referees assaulted and bundled into the boots of cars etc. All the talk in the world won’t stop a lunatic losing his temper and attacking a referee who he feels is not doing a fair job.

deisedude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573226#Comment_119573226

Make clubs suffer and it stops it stone dead.

If you put your hands on a ref then the team should be thrown out of championships, leagues etc for the year and the headcases won't abuse refs because they will become pariahs in their community.

I know that sounds drastic and collectively teams will suffer because of one individual but it needs to be done. No amount of PR campaigns will have the same impact

Leroy42

Exactly. The clubs have a clear responsibility here. it must be made very clear to clubs that abuse of refs is simply not acceptable and any abuse will be met with penalties.

Obviously, the person or persons directly involved should be dealt with directly by the club, with at least a suspension of involvement in teams, but the club as a whole needs to pay a price.

All games were suspended last weekend in Roscommon over this, rightly so, but why should other clubs pay the price? Suspend that team for the rest of the competition and conceed all games across all that club's teams the following week.

If you did that abuse of refs would stop overnight. Of course, there is always the nutter in the stands but that is simply real life and that is a different matter. What needs to be dealt with is what is under the control of the club and the association. Players, mentors and clubs members.

Deal with that and the vast majority of the issue will be dealt with.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573260#Comment_119573260

If that was tried it would either work instantly or you would have the courts clogged up by clubs taking legal cases and the League/Championship suspended for indefinite periods with appeals etc. I suspect the latter.

AndrewJRenko

My 18yo niece does camogie reffing, it's a handy supplement to pocket money, €40 for an hour's work once they are over 12s, similar to what she gets for an evening shift working in the local pub.

Apart from her initial CC1 and CC2 training courses, she has had zero training, zero support, zero involvement from her club, other than the WhatsApp group messages asking for refs to cover. They really should be doing a lot more to support young refs, if they expect to have older refs available. Some kind of annual training as a minimum, some kind of sharing of experiences, some feedback from team mentors on what makes a good ref or a bad ref.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583390#Comment_119583390

Its not just young refs. Its all refs. It needs to be a lot more than annual training. It needs to be monthly at a minimum during the season with a half day session to start the season/year off. I wouldnt be looking for feedback necessarily directly from team coaches but i would have experienced refs acting as coaches/mentors/assessors and they watch ref during a game, give work ons/feedback at half time and again at full time and send a report in to the refs committee within the county which will then affect what grade/level the ref will continue or move on to refereeing over the coming weeks

Leroy42

Again with the blaming of the ref nonsense. No matter how much, or little, training the ref has it is no excuse for any abuse.

Inform the county board if a ref isn't up to standard. A few reports like that and the ref coordinator will take action. But nobody has any right to abuse a ref. If you don't like how a ref is doing, the team mentor should talk to them at halftime to point out your concerns.

Turn it the other way. Would you accept a ref abusing a player for committing a foul? I mean, the player trains how often, they must know the rules. Or missing a shot. How many years have they been kicking a football and they put it wide!

No, nobody would accept that, yet we are supposed to accept that abuse of a ref is acceptable and it is the refs responsibility to undertake more training in the vain hope that they can get every single call exactly the way every single person at the game wants it to go.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583487#Comment_119583487

I gave up on the thread

The lads back to the subtle victim blaming and are too braindead to realise they’re doing it

If you have a problem with a referee, you raise it to the County Board - You’d don’t abuse the referee or in the case of this thread, headbutt him out cold

At Intercounty level I generally see an ‘auditor’ at one in every three games or so (for what it’s worth). They’d be taking notes on the ref. I still don’t think the auditing is great for that level of competition though

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583390#Comment_119583390

*Different sport comparison.

Junior soccer refs have Assessors that go watch them referee games, would give an assessment of the game afterwards, what they did correctly, what could be improved on etc.

These assessors would be mostly ex refs.

There would also be a meeting every week after a fitness session, where the refs go through any 'Controversial Incidents' that occured in their games, other refs would give imput and learn from other refs mistakes.

I cant believe thats not being done in Gaa ? or is it ? And if not, it bloody well should be !!!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583579#Comment_119583579

Certainly not being done for camogie refs in Dublin, nothing near it - no fitness training, no encouragement to be part of the club, no referee training or analysis, just a WhatsApp group to see who's available on Sunday at 11.

irelandrover

I don't think its any coincidence that the most respect for the referee in popular sports is in Rugby. Fans mirror what they see from the players. GAA and soccer you often see the ref take abuse from players with very little punishment. Of course the fans don't respect the ref as the players don't respect the ref. Hands on the ref from a player should be a lengthy ban. Hands on the ref from supporters should be charged with assault the same way it would be if it happened on the street.

Why other sports don't bring in the rule that only the captain speaks to the ref is beyond me.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583688#Comment_119583688

Well it helps in rugby with the offside line and breakdown etc that the captain will be quite close to play most of the time. Not going to be the case in GAA if theres a moment ref needs to speak to captain and the play is up at your full forward line and your captain is your goalie

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583778#Comment_119583778

Then make it that the ref can speak to anyone he wants but only the captain can initiate a conversation. So if the ref needs to book a player or give a warning then he can speak directly to the player. If the team needs to speak to the referee then only the captain can do that. You would avoid all these surrounding of the referee that can often take minutes. random players shouting at the ref is a yellow or moved forward 10 metres.

How often does the referee need to speak to the team captain in GAA to give a warning? Very very seldom in my opinion so the time lost waiting on the captain to come to the ref would be very small over a season.

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583601#Comment_119583601

Thats what happens when theres a severe shortage of refs especially this year with som many club games going on at the moment..

" have you a whistle?"

" i do ..."

" off ya go then.."

Its a silly system.

Theres some very old refs still whistling round my area, but no new blood to take up reffing ......

Seth Brundle

(long post but bear with me)

My son now plays on our club's senior hurling team and now that his leaving cert is done, he might return to football. He has ongoing hurling training mandated by the club - if he doesn't train then he doesn't play - simple and fair rule.

However, he also refs underage games. He did the ref course when he was about 15. Courses were organised at county level every year for lads around that age group. However, covid hit the year after he did his course meaning that no new underage refs were trained (although I think this changed this year). However, my son and some other lads have been the go-to refs for underage games and it's a handy €20 per game for them. Some weekends they might do a couple of games so its a bit of beer money.

Since they did the course a few years ago, there has been absolutely nothing. No more training. No updates on any rule changes. No encouragement from the county to stay on as a ref and move up towards older age groups. Now, I've absolutely no grá for how Kildare operate at county level but I assume that this isn't a county thing - it's national. At a time where there is a shortage of refs, there is no support for the youngest refs who have shown an interest in doing it and could easily be persuaded to continue.

My young fella recently started a part time job and gets min wage - it will tide him over for a bit of beer money while he heads to college. I know that he will soon have to turn down matches because his "real" earner is offering him some hours. The same will happen with his few clubmates doing it. So if Kildare (and other counties) have young refs but do absolutely nothing for them that would encourage them to stay refereeing, what exactly is the plan to recruit referees?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119585174#Comment_119585174

They'll have an even more severe shortage if they don't look after their current refs.

evolvingtipperary101

Barry Kelly muses on a national strike:

Nationwide ref withdrawal would 'focus minds' - Kelly (rte.ie)

If we're not there yet, I think it's inevitable in the future.

ChippingSodbury

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119586258#Comment_119586258

I think you're on the money with those points! In our County, the Refs don't get paid until Christmas, in a lump sum for all of the games throughout the year. How can you expect young lads looking for a bit of beer money or whatever to wait until the end of the year to get paid? We've seen a couple of young refs give up here too and I'd guess it's from a lack of support from the County Board as well as the payment situation. I know of one lad who was around 20 or so reffing what I think was his first underage game and was petrified. The opposition management were a disgrace in the abuse directed towards him. He didn't do a very good job on the game and you could see that he was being influenced by the opposition management (it was also their home ground). He left by almost running into the carpark at the end of the game. It wouldn't be too big of a job to send an experienced head with a lad like that for the first few games until he finds his feet. As far as I know he didn't ref another game. You can blame the opposition management in this case but that doesn't change the fact that the young lad is not a ref anymore. Condemning abuse directed towards refs is a given that I'm sure everyone on here agrees with but it happens, and it will continue to happen unless something changes in the way young lads are thrown in at the deep end with very little support.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592566#Comment_119592566

How regular do you think payment should be? It possibly should be better than one one-off payment a year at the end of the season

The support needs to be both off field training and coaching from experienced and recently retired refs.

ChippingSodbury

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592899#Comment_119592899

I can't see why payment wouldn't be every week like other summer jobs.

I'd agree that young (and more experienced) refs need extra training in both the rules and how they are implemented but also on how to deal with people. Some people have made reference to rugby referees: the captain can (politely) question a decision and the rugby will firmly explain why he made the decision. The captain may not be happy with the decision but that's the end of it. In my county, there are refs that if a player questions their decision, even calmly and politely, no discussion takes place, the free will be moved forward or the player booked. The player is left frustrated, the management/ supporters are left frustrated because they see the body language of their player and nobody is happy. We also have the opposite, where a ref will briefly and firmly explain the decision and everything remains calm. I don't know whether they do or not but a big focus of ref training should be on people skills: if you show respect, it's normally reciprocated. The authoritarian, no feedback style often ends in unhappiness on all sides.

Leroy42

There is people skills training, it is seen as an essential part of the role. In many cases, refs are more than happy to listen to feedback. There is a difference between questioning a decision, and simply disagreeing with a decision. "ref, what was the free for?" is very different to 'jaysus Ref, what the hell?"

Same for those on the sideline. Take a few minutes before the game to talk to the ref. Maybe point out where you were frustrated in the last game. Talk to them at halftime. Explain what you see as a problem. But in a relaxed conversation, not some attack.

I have plenty of coaches come to me at halftime and claim that I missed this or that, that Player A is getting nothing etc. I will either explain why, or if I have genuinely missed something state that I will keep a close eye on things.

But, at the end of the day, the ref is just another part of the game that players, and coaches need to deal with. The difference with Rugby refs, is not the refs, its the respect given by the player and coaches. They might not agree with a decision but that is the decision and they simply need to get on with it and work out how to play within that interpretation. GAA, both players and mentors, just blame the ref for being stupid or rubbish and never even attempt to adapt.

Lots of talk of refs needing more people training, but surely the main driver is the mentors. They set the tone for their team, the players and the sideline. If they remain calm, if they tell those around them to remain calm, if they impress on the players that once a free is given, the 1st thing is to get into position and when there is a break in play maybe to talk to the ref.

But that isn't the case. The ref is seen as the enemy. Somehow trying to stop your team from winning, by going out to personally rule against your team.

Guess what? In the vast, vast majority of games, refs don't care (I would say all but there will always be 1). The aim is to ref as best they can, to keep the game following, to be fair to both teams and to have a safe game. We don't care that this is your local derby. Or that this team beat you by a terrible penalty decision last year. Or what the ramifications of certain results are. We don't care how much training you have done, or not. The rules are the rules. We call it as we see it. In many cases, it is a judgement call. Who fouled first? Was it a deliberate act or merely a coming together?

It is frustrating to have a call go against you. It is frustrating that you might lose because of what you perceive as a bad decision. But, stop. Before you go attacking the ref. Did all your players make perfect decisions all game? Has the mentor done the best training possible, did they get the starting line and subs right? All games are made up of hundreds of instances that could lead to different outcomes. But it is only the refs decisions that seem to illicit such anger and resentment.

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119594165#Comment_119594165

Unfortunately, you cant change a persons personality on the pitch - Ref or Player.

Theres a few reiteoiri round our way that have the "no nonsense" im the boss, i know every law and rule" approach ... and have a condescending-power trip tone to everything.

And theres a few that will explain why he penalised the player for the foul (expalaining helps younger players understand) as well.

I reffed a different sport , up to NAtional Lge level, and when you start out , you start at schoolboy games, and then work your way up through the grades. At a local level you do have an assessor that will come to your games and give feedback/critique of the game.

So you could have 2-3 seasons experience of schoolboy before you go to adults, and then you do have to be a b)llix for a while , cos you are tested by players to see what they can get away with.

but after a while players know ya, know what you clamp down on, let them get away with, if you are weak, wont use your cards etc.... Same way as you know going out on the field what players are mouthy, dirty, sound etc.....

But all along we have assessors, and meetings , and an annual fitness test/law exam.

It does seem that we were managed better than the GAA are doing at the moment !

There must be very low morale amongst GAA refs, and they must feel abandoned by their organisation?

ChippingSodbury

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119594340#Comment_119594340

I agree with everything you've said except for the bits about going to the ref and asking calmly and politely about a decision etc. I would love if that was the case but my point is that some refs will, under no circumstances, allow any communication between themselves and anyone else involved in the game. That is an issue that needs to be addressed. You spoke about the mentors setting the tone on the sideline: 100% agree again but you can be guaranteed that you won't get all mentors to remain calm on the sideline as long as there are authoritarian, no communication refs on the field. Both issues are interlinked and should be tacked together. Respect is a two way street.

We had a guy ref one of our games recently and he was the best I've come across in a long time. He spotted things that are really difficult to see, like off the ball pulling/ dragging (on both sides). He explained decisions quickly and firmly. The difference between him and a ref who wears out a 10m2 patch in the middle of the field, books players who say anything (and I mean anything) is chalk and cheese.

The problem of abuse from the sidelines will never be solved when there are really poor refs around. The problem of a shortage of refs and having to engage poor ones will never be solved without properly supporting young lads and giving them lots of training/ help: it's just not an attractive option to young sporty lads to get thrown in without good supports around.

I might just add, I have never abused a ref nor would I condone anyone else doing so, no matter what decision is made. I'm just trying to highlight the fact the recruitment/ training/ retention process for refs has plenty of holes...

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119594165#Comment_119594165

Many other summer jobs are fortnightly or monthly. It is expenses as well.

That refs dont allow questions is because of the attitudes of many other players/coaches and supporters so its natural they wont be as inclined to answer fair questions when most of the time they get abuse etc.