Bray Air Show - DART Doors forced open following delays and discomfort.

SeeMoreBut

Any photos on the train?

bikeman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387813#Comment_119387813

That would not even come close to the capacity needed.

Each completely rammed 8 car train carries at least 1,200 pax. A double decker bus holds approximately 80 safely. This would mean for every DART pulling in, you would need 15 buses lined up ready to go. The DARTs were running about 10 minutes apart at the peak on Sunday. Allowing for loading up, drive, unload and back, you would need about 5 batches of these buses to cover the amount of trains arriving. That would be 75 buses.

As you can see, that would be completely un workable. DB and GAI can't even come close to covering their own schedules at the moment, never mind provide one extra bus.

Heavy rail is the solution for an event like Bray it can lift large numbers away more than any bus or certainly car can. But it has to be managed effectively, which it wasn't on Sunday. Hopefully Irish Rail have learned from this and will hire in stewards to assist with the crowd control and put in a an effectively management plan around the level crossing (routing pedestrians away from that area) and running 8 car DARTs throughout along with supplementary specials with 29s and clear communication to passengers on board.

jeffk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388372#Comment_119388372

Just throwing out idea, but when you say that it does make sense.

I dont know what darts where running on ten minutes, maybe the bray etc, but I was left waiting a hour for the Maynooth one to go to clonsila, then missed one in clonsila and had to wait a hour for next one (525 left event to get home to blanch at 1110 or so, ended up going back to the pier to go toilet and then got chipper as knew be waiting, better than two hours in a queue in that heat)

I know the carparking etc was madness, but I am sure it wouldnt have taken me 6 hours to get home if I drove (id say the all ireland supports got home quicker)

I can see the simple solution of knocking the show on the head or maybe irish rail etc will just block it (if you have to put in for a licence to hold the event and people can object) as how many people got the dart from Bay for free to just get the crowd moving

I think a North/Southside airshow is the way to go or even have a few regional ones, funny enough the Rush one came up on my facebook timeline

cython

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388450#Comment_119388450

I dont know what darts where running on ten minutes, maybe the bray etc, but I was left waiting a hour for the Maynooth one to go to clonsila, then missed one in clonsila and had to wait a hour for next one (525 left event to get home to blanch at 1110 or so, ended up going back to the pier to go toilet and then got chipper as knew be waiting, better than two hours in a queue in that heat)

At the risk of seeming to be pedantic, the Maynooth line is obviously not (yet, at least) a DART service, and is a very poor relation of the DART service in terms of frequency at the weekends in particular as a result. There may have been extra services on that line for the All Ireland, but with the focus they'd have had on clearing Drumcondra, I don't think anyone travelling from further east would have benefited from it, and by the sounds of it normal schedule would have resumed by the time you got as far as Connolly.

jeffk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388498#Comment_119388498

I thought Dart is green trains, the Maynooth train is green (so i assumed dart), I know the one from Clonsila to M3 Parkway is silver so is different

This was nine at night (just under four hours after the show "finished" , another large crowd ready to be squashed into a train in hope of getting home

bikeman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388450#Comment_119388450

On a Sunday evening, the Maynooth line only has an hourly service; 19:17, 20:17, 21:17, 22:17 and 23:27 ex Connolly.

In Bray, I joined the queue at 18:20, one DART loaded up and departed. We made the next one which departed at 18:45 from Bray (with a seat). That was in Connolly at 19:40. If I was travelling to Clonsilla, the next train would be the 20:17 and in Clonsilla at 20:43. That would have been 2 hours 20 minutes to do that journey on Sunday. Not sure what you were doing til 23:10 to get to Blanch?

Leap card allows a free transfer to a bus. So you could have alighted at Tara St. and headed for a 39 to Blanch?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119385959#Comment_119385959

Why were you using Google rather than the actual platform displays in the stations to see where trains were going from?

Google doesn’t store that kind of information.

It sounds like you missed two trains (one in Connolly and one in Clonsilla) by not looking at the actual displays in the stations which really isn’t the railway company’s fault?

jeffk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388610#Comment_119388610

I wrongly decided to park the car at M3 parkway (not navan road parkway as drive more and no free parking) to use public transport with the "help" of google maps to go and come back from Bray

Where I live in Blanch its 38/38a or walk the centre/village and get a 39 etc, no dart or luas near us and i HATE the bus (late if it shows up in the first place)

I left the pier just as red arrows was a no show, 520 or so seen the crowds so gave up and came back and got onto a train around 720-730

Got into connolly around 820 and missed a train and had to wait around 920

Then got to Clonsila around 950, google said the wrong platfrom and time and eventually got on a train at 1050

Drove out of out of M3 parkway at around 1110

So 2 hours queueing or having a chipper or whatever and then another two or less waiting on tains so if i left the show at 7ish and the stars alined and got 3 trains in a row with a resoanal gap, then yes would have been 2/2.30 hours or so travel time

jeffk

522

534

730 dart to stand all the way in

jeffk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388734#Comment_119388734

I used both

Connolly as I got of the bray train, it was 55 minutes on the board for maynooth train

Clonsila i got in at 950 the same time as the train left, then no time on the board and rang SOS and he said the time and the right platfrom (clonsila is two platforms then its like the 3rd one is cut into the side of one of them as the train stops there)

So its not like i was in the stations and missed a train by my own fault, if was in clonsila earlier then yes that would have been my fault

CreadanLady

It is a crap event anyway. All that hassle to see a few distant loop-the-loops miles away in the sky. No loss if it is knocked on the head.

Even the shannon air show a few years ago was crap. No opportunity to get up close and see the planes on the ground.

Totally over rated and hyped up. And as usual, ,big events draw troublemakers like

LXFlyer

Ok - in your earlier post you said you’d arrived into Connolly “just after 8” - hence I was struggling to see how you missed the 20:20 service to Maynooth.

But are you saying that the connecting train for M3 Parkway left the bay platform at Clonsilla before passengers could cross the footbridge from the train from Connolly?

That sounds really crazy if true.

jeffk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388822#Comment_119388822

Well then I just missed both trains so

I got into clonsila at 950 , went to the platform Google said to wait for the 1010 train as Google said

Maybe if I knew was at 950 and right platform and ran down I MIGHT gave made it

I think there was us and one other person, most had gotten off before clonsila (more sense)

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388866#Comment_119388866

But there is no 22:10 train from Clonsilla to anywhere on Sundays, so I don’t know where you’re getting that information from.

You keep saying “Google” but I’ve no idea what you were looking at?

If you had looked at the Irish Rail website and timetable it shows that there’s a connection to M3 Parkway due to leave at 21:48 - now it is supposed to wait for the train from Connolly as it’s only purpose is to provide a connection.

There is a train due to leave M3 Parkway for Clonsilla at 22:10 - maybe you checked the wrong place?

For future reference, I can only suggest you bookmark the Maynooth line timetable pdf below - unfortunately it sounds like you were looking at the wrong place for accurate info.

https://www.irishrail.ie/IrishRail/media/Timetable-PDF-s/Connolly-DART-timetables/14_m3_parkway-longford.pdf

jeffk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388915#Comment_119388915

Do you work for Irish rail? I'm getting that vibe

Google maps is what I used

Look we can go round and round but what happened was a joke, end of.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388926#Comment_119388926

I’ve nothing to do with them - I’m just a public transport user, but perhaps a more frequent one than yourself by the sounds of things.

I was merely puzzled how you managed to miss two trains.

Unfortunately there is only an hourly frequency on the Maynooth line in the evenings on Sundays so unless you time it right, you can be stuck.

But the reason I asked if the M3 train left without sufficient time for you to get across the footbridge at Clonsilla is that it simply shouldn’t - that’s supposed to be a guaranteed connection.

I was just trying to be helpful with the timetable link. It’s always worth checking in advance.

stephenjmcd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388926#Comment_119388926

You used Google, Google was wrong. As the other poster mentioned there's no 22.10 train going in your direction.

Best off using either the IR timetable or better still go onto the journey planner or the live station board on the website which tells you what platform your service goes from as the m3 parkway is a connection service.

IR can be blamed for alot on Sunday but you can't blame them for you using a service (google maps) that doesn't always contain up to date timetables, platform information etc so I don't see how you can call it a joke

I can see where the other poster is coming from because you're timings etc didn't seem to add up but the use of Google maps could explain it.

Journey planner has all the platforms listed. For example the consilla service you were probably on, correct platforms listed

Moral of the story, don't rely on Google maps for the correct transport information. Always check IR for the correct times and platform.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381797#Comment_119381797

Luas trams have opening windows. None have a/c as far as I know and it wouldn't really make sense for them to.

jeffk

Ok then what's the go to app for public transport etc planning?

I know there's an official app with crap rating on the play store

When I was in Birmingham a hotel worker suggested Moovit

I will admit when I'm wrong but I've planned many a day out, holidays etc and find hard to take what happened in my own city as my own fault so that's why defensive

Somewhat bad luck landing twice to miss trains, but after that the system is all wrong, imagine landing here as a tourist with no English

HeidiHeidi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389087#Comment_119389087

I use a-b.ie, find it very good.

http://a-b.ie/nta/XSLT_TRIP_REQUEST2?language=en

bikeman1

I have had a look on Google Maps and the journey planner does not suggest any platforms at Clonsilla for the changeover.

The connection at Clonsilla for M3 Parkway is a well established connection these days. When you alight at Clonsilla (coming from Connolly), go straight to the footbridge, cross over to the other side and then you will see a train waiting in platform 3 (bay platform) with M3 Parkway on the display. This train waits for the passengers to make the connection and then heads off when everyone is over.

You would have done similar on the way in from M3. You would have hopped off at Clonsilla, walked to the platform and then hopped on the Connolly bound train when it pulled in.

A little public transport advice. Be alert, plan your journey, use all the information available to you (station signs etc.), ask someone if unsure and take responsibility for your journey. Far too many people (not saying this is you) are in their own world on headphones / not looking up from their phones and then make a mess with their journey. They then go on to blame everyone but themselves. But that's the way the world has gone these days!

ArmaniJeanss

@LXFlyer

Is there a 'log' in which one could check what time the Maynooth train actually arrived at Clonsilla, and also what time the M3PW train left Clonsilla on the night in question. Whilst the poster is a bit hard to follow, I suspect that in daylight he would surely have noticed the train in platform 3 at Clonsilla.

@jeffk sorry it didn't work out for you and hopefully it doesn't turn you off using it again for work etc. Just seemed to go wrong at every stage, but generally it does work well.

LXFlyer

@jeffk You were very unlucky to be honest and the trip home sounded like an absolute nightmare unfortunately. I really do sympathise with you, as an hour at Connolly and another at Clonsilla would put anyone off.

For future info, for train journeys, I would use the journey planner on the Irish Rail website. It does show platforms, and they also have an app showing live info. Also for the Maynooth line, I would certainly double check the timetable that I posted above, given the line operates at lower frequencies.

As @bikeman1 says Google maps does not list platforms.

The TFI Journey Planner app and TFI Real Time app are useful for multi-mode trip planning and live bus info.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389076#Comment_119389076

They have some kind of forced air system with heating and cooling. In my experience, it’s quite good even in warm days.

JP Liz V1

IR should reimburse all Sunday customers

cython

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388572#Comment_119388572

It's not that simple, I'm afraid. DART is specifically the service between Howth/Malahide and Bray/Greystones, as operated by electrified units powered by the overhead lines. The services running towards Maynooth/M3 are commuter ones, operated by diesel units, and much lower frequency. DART+ West, if/when it is delivered (rumblings in the news this week that it could be operational in 2029, but I'll not hold my breath), will see proper electrified DART services operating on this western line.

tnegun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389440#Comment_119389440

If you can figure out the train ID's involved historical info should be available here https://api.irishrail.ie/realtime/ it should have arrival and departure times for all stations on the route.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389572#Comment_119389572

Just to point out, Google maps does have the ability to show platforms for stations, however it only seems to be a select few (wicklow town for example), and it doesn't correlate to what is shown in the official Irish rail app or even doesn't always appear

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390464#Comment_119390464

Knowing how platform changes can and do happen, I wouldn’t rely on Google maps for that level of detail anywhere.

Far better to use the Irish Rail app or even better, station displays.

Hilly Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380761#Comment_119380761

It didn't happen at the last air show. It didn't happen at river fest either.

Hilly Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381026#Comment_119381026

Still trespassers until staff arrived to help de train them.

Hilly Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381634#Comment_119381634

All 3.

Gumbo

There was 2 darts that arrived at Bray empty due to people getting off the trains on the tracks.

I was on the platform at 4.45pm on Sunday in Bray heading south to Greystones.

The digital boards were still displaying greystones bound trains to arrive in 2 mins.

Announcements stated only northbound trains effected.

Complete shambles by IE as no staff around to guide anybody.

RTE/Pulse we’re there filming so my take is that everything was exaggerated for the cameras. Those guys have video footage of everything so the truth should come out in time.

An RTE girl, yes RTE, not IE told us there was a shuttle train on Platform 2 going to greystones. Despite all the boards saying Platform 3.

We got on that dart at 5.05pm, the wife, myself, 11yo, 6yo and 15 month baby. We were sweating. We were packed into a corner shoulder to shoulder with other passengers. We had to strip the baby, take tee shirts off the older boys. And that was us in a alerted dart with the doors open. We didn’t leave that station until 5.55pm! 50 mins sitting on a swearing dart not knowing when it would leave so afraid to step off!

While we were standing there waiting to leave the northbound trains were displaying greystones as their destinations. I can only imagine that people got caught out with that too!

I can only imagine what the people on the felt on the other trains stuck with doors closed.

I can confirm that our trains, to and from did not have any AC running!

Communication was the big let down here.

Hilly Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119385959#Comment_119385959

Never trust google. I've had people arguing with me by saying but google says . Im looking at the boards with the correct platform and time and they still ask if I'm sure. You past 3 departure boards from platform 7 to 2. A quick glance at one of them would have told you the right platform.

Hilly Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388572#Comment_119388572

Not large and not all waiting on the same train.

pjcb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390882#Comment_119390882

if a train was on fire and people escaped would you call them trespassers?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391521#Comment_119391521

if the whole train was on fire, or there was no ability to get from a carriage on fire to one which isn't, then no as that is a genuine emergency situation.

however the train being a bit stuffy or being unable to wait is not a genuine emergency or even an emergency so therefore hilly is correct in this case.

Jamie2k9

Irish Rail said 9 additional services operated for the show in 2022. I don't know if just to/from Connolly number of overall.

Had a look back at 2018 weekly circular indicates 24 rostered additional services on the Saturday and 28 rostered additional services on the Sunday. I have said rostered for a reason which may indicate certion services didn't operate. I don't think Sunday DART freq has changed in years.

I can't check 2019 as I don't have it however I suspect possibly the same if not less would have operated. There was even more services for the 2017 show...

The point is what was scheduled for 2022 was wholly inadquate. I accept drivers might be a major problem but significnetly reduced services and sending 6 cars out is inexcusable. This is one of the biggest failuers of the weekend. I don't think it would have changed events but it didn't help.

Anyone want to tell us what was planned in the weekly circular this year?

WealthyB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391630#Comment_119391630

A bit stuffy!!

We we very luckily on the last carraige of a Dart that got into Bray at 1.10pm. The carraige had no windows, and the aircon was definitely not working. The carraige wasn't full by any stretch, about 15-20 people standing, and it was uncomfortably hot. Luckily we were able to open the doors at each stop along the way to let some fresh air in. I can't imagine what it'd been like if the carraige was packed with bodies radiating heat and no way for fresh air to get in around the carraige.

JayRoc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391630#Comment_119391630

I don't think this attitude is really helpful, and it echoes the disastrous tone of many of Irish Rail's communications about this incident that only served to cause more anger among an already very angry public.

It's not hyperbole to say that people were in immediate physical danger from the conditions on those trains. To hear people wave it off as "a bit stuffy" is daft and does no one any favours.

trellheim

if the whole train was on fire, or there was no ability to get from a carriage on fire to one which isn't, then no as that is a genuine emergency situation.

Given this type of response , would you need an independent arbitrator sitting in the carriage with a thermometer , to decide that this is finally an emergency and that now if pax asked nicely and pretty please that they might possibly get off ?

Spot the IE employees posting 🙄

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119392547#Comment_119392547

it's perfectly helpful as it's fact.

the conditions while uncomfortable on the trains did not constitute an extreme emergency such that people could go tressppassing on a live railway, delaying other trains and passengers and putting themselves at risk.

that's just fact.

irish rail have a lot of explaining to do and questions to answer, plenty of issues surrounding the weekend that they are to blame for, but the reality is no matter what they did there would be impatient idiots forcing open doors and going out on the tracks and those idiots are to blame for that.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390590#Comment_119390590

While you are absolutely correct with your advice, I would point out that Google does support real time updates for public transport. See GTFS Realtime. Google has no problem handling such sudden platform and schedule changes in other countries, they aren't operating off just fixed schedules.

Only in Ireland have I seen such a vast disconnect between what station displays show, versus what ends up on transport apps, Google, etc.

And of course that is assuming the platform displays are correct, as pointed out above, that isn't always the case.

Irish Rail has often throughout the years had pretty serious issues communicating with their customers when things go wrong.

I'd definitely say that Irish Rail and the NTA need to do far better feeding the correct data through to Google GTFS realtime.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119392986#Comment_119392986

yes because i realise a live railway is not a playground and people have no business there unless they are a track worker, emergency services or there is an extreme emergency then i must be an IE employee.

dispite the fact i have plenty of history of being critical of IE myself.

right so.

look, irish rail should have insured their trains were in full health, should have insured they could operate as many services as possible, however people who have no clue what they are doing should not have gone on to a live railway where and when it is very clear they were not in danger but were in discomfort, delaying other trains and passengers.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119393716#Comment_119393716

I’d still be VERY wary of using Google for rail info. to that level of detail anywhere.

Rail is so prone to late notice changes that it’s just too risky.

Across the water thankfully www.realtimetrains.co.uk exists which makes life easier.

In Ireland I certainly would not use the TFI Real-time app or Google Maps for live rail or LUAS info, but only for the initial planning, as they don’t correlate with the actual live data in my experience.

Instead I use the Irish Rail app or website and LUAS app.

Maybe the new TFI app will finally provide accurate live rail and LUAS info, but right now it’s only useful for planning.

Ger Roe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119385815#Comment_119385815

His understanding was reserved for the trains that were affected after passengers in the first train had caused the knock on delay situation. He said that the first train had been stopped for 6 minutes - I have used the DART to bray many times, and it often stops short of the level crossing for up to that period of time. The people who left the train at that point caused much longer delays for those passengers stranded in the trains following.

It is those people in the following trains who had Mr Kenny's understanding - not those who started the incident.

Ger Roe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119385916#Comment_119385916

Regarding closing the level crossing : there are many people with restricted mobility who would not be able to climb the footbridge. They are entitled to attend public events too and you can not subject them to a physical challenge in order to access public spaces. Also, I doubt the footbridge could handle the crowd level required.

I know there are other access points to the seafront, but they are further away and again you could cause considerable inconvenience to people with restricted mobility, or people with young children, or pushing prams etc, if you closed the route that is designed and intended to be easiest access for the majority of people who arrive into the town, by train.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394202#Comment_119394202

Ah now, the alternate route is literally just an extra 100 meters from the station entrance, versus the crossing!

This is taking the "think of the elderly/disabled" to a silly level. The level crossing should be kept closed for events like this.

bk

"I’d still be VERY wary of using Google for rail info. to that level of detail anywhere.

Rail is so prone to late notice changes that it’s just too risky."

I’ve travelled on rail all over the UK and mainland Europe and always use Google Maps. I admit I always double check the station screens, as being Irish I assume it maybe wrong, but I honestly can’t think of a single time that Google Maps was wrong. It really is a great and valuable tool.

The point is Google Maps is real time in most countries and it reflects exactly what is shown on the screens as it should.

That is why so many Europeans just use Goggle Maps when they come here and get caught out like Jeff here when it doesn’t match, it just isn’t normal.

Can I ask, do you genuinely believe that Irish Rail / NTA supplied the correct real time data to Google, but Google just didn’t bother displaying it?

I seriously doubt that. In software engineering we have a concept of "Garbage In, Garbage Out". Google just displays whatever real-time data that public transport operators supply to them. If that data is garbage, then Google can’t do much about it.

Having watched the development of the real time systems here in Ireland for years, there is clearly issues with Irish Rail / NTA delivering accurate real time data. The information systems seem poorly integrated.

LXFlyer

I think by my comment earlier it was pretty clear that I do not believe that live info is on the TFI app or Google maps for either LUAS or Irish Rail, hence I use their own apps and website.

But if abroad, I would still check station departure boards, particularly for platforms - call me old fashioned but it’s just that extra bit safer.