Bray Air Show - DART Doors forced open following delays and discomfort.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394202#Comment_119394202

There are lifts in the DART station which can be used they can go around by Albert Walk which is narrow enough but they could also go around by Adelaide Road if that's unsuitable. The stewards could direct people around this way if the bridge gets too busy so it's like there's no alternatives.

Ger Roe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119395060#Comment_119395060

Where is the 100 meters alternative option for seafront access?.

Anyway, if we get into a debate about how much inconvenience we can inflict on elderly, disabled etc, then we will be in for a bumpy ride. Apart from the absolute fact that the foot bridge is a far more dangerous crossing option if it was ever used as a mass movement alternative. (so much so, that it never will be).

Those two factors are main considerations as to why the level crossing can not be closed for pedestrian access on such occasions.

bk

"Where is the 100 meters alternative option for seafront access?."

Yes, Albert Avenue, literally goes under the other end of the platform.

I would argue that delaying and complicating trains getting in and out of Bray would "inflict" more inconvenience on elderly and disabled people then an extra 100 meters. Also I'd argue that the extremely large groups of people squeezed in front of the closed crossing gates would have been far less "comfortable" for elderly and disabled people then just heading down Albert Avenue, directed by stewards.

bk

"I think by my comment earlier it was pretty clear that I do not believe that live info is on the TFI app or Google maps for either LUAS or Irish Rail, hence I use their own apps and website."

But that is what I'm getting at, this simply isn't good enough, there is no technical reason why live info shouldn't be available on all apps and screens. Frankly all screens and apps should be running off the same real-time info feed.

What I'm saying this is Irish Rail / NTA mess.

I actually had an interesting experience with buses today. The RTPI screen was saying that two 16's were coming, followed by a 1 a few minutes later. The TFI app on the other hand said the 1 was coming, followed by 16 a few minutes later. The App was right and the screen was wrong, the 1 turned up first as predicted by the app, while there was no sign of a 16 down the road

bk

Aha and I go looking and it turns out that the NTA are about to rollout a new GTFS Realtime service that sounds like it will fix these exact issues.

It turns out that while realtime data is currently available for Dublin Bus, Go Ahead and Bus Eireann, it currently isn't available with Luas or Irish Rail! However this will change with the upcoming launch of the new service and thus realtime info for rail and Luas should be avilable in Google Maps, etc. in a few months, finally!

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/attention-developers-upgrade-to-gtfs-realtime-api/

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119395414#Comment_119395414

I’m not disagreeing with any of that.

You seemed to think I was, but I’m not.

I was asked what to use and gave clear advice above about which apps to use based on my own knowledge and experience.

BUT speaking personally, I would still double check platform numbers in any station that I was in, no matter where it was, with live screens rather than trust that the link to Google maps was working. Late platform changes can happen and sometimes wires get crossed. That’s purely my preference.

As far as Dublin City buses are concerned I use the live map on the TFI app a fair bit too nowadays to double check where the bus actually is back along the route.

jeffk

Found this app, assume early access is alpha or into beta

bk

See my above comment on real time data coming soon for Irish Rail and Luas.

"As far as Dublin City buses are concerned I use the live map on the TFI app a fair bit too nowadays to double check where the bus actually is back along the route."

BTW looks like this data on the bus location is also coming soon to this new real time feed from the NTA, so the same data should soon be available in other apps too like Google Maps and Moovit, great.

bk

"Found this app, assume early access is alpha or into beta"

Yes, this most likely uses the new real time interface.

BTW you mentioned Moovit earlier, excellent app, I do like it, but note it uses the same data feed that Google Maps and other apps use. So until they update to the new feed, it won't have real time Rail and Luas data either.

pjcb

whats the max occupancy of those carriages?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119396185#Comment_119396185

Irish Rail claim there is no max whenever people claim something is crowded beyond safety... think its about 120 a car in reality.

Jamie2k9

Rail Accident Investgation Unit appear to have opened an official investgation.

"IÉ impromptu evacuations of passengers from DART trains, Bray, 24th July 2022"

Jamie2k9

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40958921.html

A garda insisted that the doors of a DART train stranded on the day of the Bray Air Show be opened with passengers inside already “distressed”.

A timeline of the events – which brought chaos to transport services – revealed that it took just six and a half minutes before the first passenger forced the doors of a train open after it came to a stop in sweltering conditions.

It explained how after one train came to a stop on the train line, both the gardaí and coast guard had requested the doors be opened so passengers could be evacuated.

Seven minutes later, the driver reported that a garda sergeant at the scene now “insists that doors should be opened” to let passengers disembark.

Another entry in the timeline said many on board were being evacuated through a local golf course; however, a “large group of trespassers” were moving north along the train line towards Shankill in South Dublin.

p_haugh

The RTE documentary aired tonight, with a section of it covering the events of the Bray Air show

https://www.rte.ie/player/movie/the-dart-no-ordinary-day-e1/340661800340

Tow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962040#Comment_119962040

Looks like the lawyers got it pulled from the RTE Player this morning.

p_haugh

Weird, it still seems to be available on sky at least

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962040#Comment_119962040

I have heard (from a very reliable source) that basically every driver for the DART has put in for days off around the time of the gigs in Malahide and the Bray airshow.

GAS!

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962764#Comment_119962764

Who can blame them for that? Trying to do their job safely on a railway system originally designed back in Victorian times would be almost impossible as we saw...

SteM

..

Hotblack Desiato

Yes, the railway alignment has been around since Victorian times but I fail to see how that's at all relevant.

thomasj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962696#Comment_119962696

It's on the RTE player app on Android

Glaceon

It's back up now. I wonder if an offending part has been removed?

trellheim

the air show bits are still there

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962864#Comment_119962864

No one! I'd do the same!

Do we think now that the standard operating procedure for Joe Public is that: If the train is stopped for more than 6 minutes and it's fairly full, then the correct thing to do is force open the doors?

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963909#Comment_119963909

I was on a train that got stuck in place without power/aircon in August(Italy) and was so hot that I had to go change my clothes due to sweat, thankfully we could get off the train to try and cool down a bit while they fixed the fault... I can only imagine the panic of being on a packed train with kids/old people etc...

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962864#Comment_119962864

Would it be possible for Irish Rail to put customer service staff on the trains on those days to communicate with customers? Or just make sure the drivers PA system actually works, is possible to understand and is used frequently. Bonus points if it’s used to remind people of the penalties for misuse.

30 seconds is the timeline for a delay on the Tube before drivers have to communicate with passengers. It’s even less on the Disney Monorail - drivers there communicate delays as soon as they see a Yellow warning. Of course, they have the advantage that no one is going to willingly open the doors between stations!

Hilly Bill

The pa system is sufficient. Hardly anyone listens to it anyway especially those with ear phones in. Maybe it's a plan to hold a train in Shankill or the new one in woodbrook if that's closer until the platform clears in bray . Pointless putting staff on a train who won't get the info relaid to them quicker than the driver and wouldn't be able to walk through a packed train.

p_haugh

They're slowly adding led screens to the existing fleet (and will be part of the incoming dart fleet), so they would also be able to repeatedly display text announcements of delays etc. on these for those not hearing the driver announcemnt.

Hotblack Desiato

Great but will they be used effectively?

p_haugh

One would hope, but you can never know with Irish rail

p_haugh

Report has finally been released

https://twitter.com/RailUsersIe/status/1738173081502278033?

Glaceon

At this stage Train E268 was stopped at Signal BR28 (Figure 9) for approximately five minutes. On the carriage, the heat was so great that condensation built up on the carriage ceiling and began to drip onto passengers. A teenager, who was feeling faint with the heat, began to vomit (both symptoms of heat exhaustion), and due to the crowding was vomiting over other passengers, some of whom tried to disperse, and others tried to come to her assistance. In the commotion, a baby began screaming and turning red, and the baby’s father, Pax 133, in a “distressed”, “agitated” and “frustrated” state (irritability is a symptom of heat exhaustion), opened a passenger door by means of the emergency opening device, forcing open the door, and passengers began self-detraining.

Sounds horrific. I can't blame anyone for wanting to get out of that situation.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526239#Comment_121526239

Unfortunately none of what is in that comes as a big surprise to me. The culture in Irish Rail is part of the problem in my personal view, always a tendency to blame passengers and defend itself when it needs to be doing better.

The fact that they haven't learnt many lessons from what happened in DL in 2017 just backs that up.

AlmightyCushion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526239#Comment_121526239

And Irish Rail at the time were blaming the passengers for getting off the train, calling them trespassers and saying the Gardai were getting involved. It really highlights how Irish Rail see and treat passengers.

L1011

How many times did they insist in statements and tweets that the aircon was working when it wasn't even on

Vic_08

There is a very pervasive idea that AC is a luxury in Ireland and something not really needed at all. If it isn't on or not working then no big deal, sure isn't it always cold in Ireland anyway.

A train or bus is basically a greenhouse, without opening windows and movement or fully functioning AC the interior will easily get uncomfortably hot on a sunny day even if the ambient temp is relatively low, on an actual hot day it can easily get dangerously hot.

We get warnings to not leave animals or children in a locked car but seemingly there is no urgency with hundreds of people tightly packed in a sealed train carriage.

A Dub in Glasgo

Scathing report on IE failings

trellheim

Kentish Town, Lewisham, Royal Oak a few weeks back, and this all prove the point : as soon as a train stops outside a station, a clock starts ticking after which pax will self-evacuate . You can change the clock by communication and environmental factors but it cannot be stopped.

trellheim

talk about trying to bury a bad news report, releasing 22/12/23 when everyone's gone home

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529053#Comment_121529053

Passengers really are idiots.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121528134#Comment_121528134

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529062#Comment_121529062

Yes yes I'm sure lessons will be learned.

A blatantly cheeky move releasing it Christmas weekend. Ridiculous.

trellheim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529084#Comment_121529084

No jax and no aircon blistering hot weather . Saying people are idiots means you are just trotting out the IE party line

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529742#Comment_121529742

It was only 5 minutes.

expectationlost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529924#Comment_121529924

people had already been on that train for much longer than that.

trellheim

Five minutes and thirty two seconds without an audible PA from the driver , lets remember. The report bears reading in detail.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529742#Comment_121529742

no they aren't, they are just simply stating facts.

other trains were unnecessarily delayed because of the tresspassers antics.

irish rail screwed up absolutely but that is no excuse for tresspassing on a live railway when no lives were in danger.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531062#Comment_121531062

The facts are in the report.

Everything that said person has written is merely their opinion.

markpb

30 seconds. That’s how long TfL will allow a tube train to be stopped at a signal before the driver is expected to make their first announcement.

In this case and under extremely uncomfortable circumstances, there was no announcement for over five minutes. Anyone coming here and blaming passengers after the regulator comprehensively blamed Irish Rail is unbelievable.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526538#Comment_121526538

There is a case for monitoring temperatures on public transport and having some standard for what is acceptable.

Following Covid there was a lot of talk of ventilation etc, there talk should have been followed up with monitoring of air quality.

trellheim

IE were perfectly happy to refer to their customers as trespassers on the day on twitter remember and this fact is called out as a causal factor : "CoF-04 – IÉ’s Twitter account continuously referred to the self-detrained passengers as “trespassing”, which greatly annoyed some passengers on the stranded trains and may have influenced their decision to self-detrain;"

The first train that let out had aircon which was working, which according to the report was not turned on and I quote "On returning to the Dublin end of the cab to bring the train into service, Driver E268 would have had to turn on the air conditioning again, but did not, as he thought it was already on. "