Germany needs a bailout

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388539#Comment_119388539

Yes they do save power. Heating an entire office for 700-800 people so they can then leave at 6 and go home to start heating a house which has been left cold all day will not just use fuel(oil etc) but even for a boiler will need electricity to run.

I am not talking about Germany, I am talking about what Ireland should be doing anyway. If we are helping out Germany then why not negotiate terms with them. I am not sure how Ireland can help Germany anyway? we are not connected to the European grid yet. We are connected to the UK.

Ireland now should be look at what we can do to reduce supply of gas while we spend that money on increasing our renewable technologies. Instead of talking about it start doing something. The war started how many months ago and how much renewable power has Ireland brought online?

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388538#Comment_119388538

It was a very good idea for Germany and Europe. It was not great for the countries who wanted to export gas to Europe though, why would they if they buy from others if they had as much cheap gas as they ever could wish for. Now they get expensive gas and rely on those countries instead.

Shutting it down ended the very thing that allowed them to compete with the East and now the east will be getting all the cheap energy in time instead of the expensive stuff.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388888#Comment_119388888

Its not a good idea to be come heavily reliant on megalomaniac. If anyone should have learnt that lesson its Germany. Never mind your states biggest threat. They sleep walked into this, fingers in ears. its a bad idea to be so dependent on one supplier normally. Its business 101.

bob mcbob

This is not the first time that this has happened. Looks like we are going back to the 70's and not just with platform shoes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagflation

Marcos

Ah lads, don't worry sure we have Eamon Ryan negotiating on our behalf? What could go wrong?

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388911#Comment_119388911

No, they cut Russia off, they cancelled the whole thing. I would be quite sure that Russia after going through all the expense and time of building Nordstream 2 would of been quite happy to supply cheap gas forever to Europe regardless of this Ukraine situation.

Now we will see over the coming years how they go without it. Personally i think it was stupid because there was no need. Just pressure from Biden and Trump.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388539#Comment_119388539

We were charged about third of what we could get on the international markets. The European bailout was a significant offshoring of risk from Ireland to Europe. They also allowed us to pay it off early when we could refinance for cheaper on the international market (unlike the UK).

There are many things to be annoyed about with regard the monetary policy of austerity, but the bailout and its interest rate in and of itself is most certainly not one.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388943#Comment_119388943

Would this not fall under the Minister for Foreign Affairs?

The department defines its role as: "The Department of Foreign Affairs advises the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Ministers of State and the Government on all aspects of foreign policy and coordinates Ireland's response to international developments.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388954#Comment_119388954

Pressure from Biden and Trump who want to sell gas into Europe. Including of course the private American company wanting to set up a plant in Kerry.

I am no fan of Russia but I can tell you America is no better....

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388995#Comment_119388995

No, everything in Ireland is Eamon Ryan's fault

bob mcbob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388954#Comment_119388954

This is not correct. Nordstream 1 and 2 are just the latest in a number of gas pipelines supplying Russian gas to Germany.

The first deal was signed in 1970 - (estimated as supplying less than 10% of Germanys gas needs turned out to be 15%)

Then the second gas pipeline in the 1980's - (increasing Germany's supply from 15 to 30%)

Nordstream 1& 2 - increases it to over 50%

This article gives the history of it

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/02/germany-dependence-russian-energy-gas-oil-nord-stream

This has a number of staggering statements but this is far and away the worst -

In February this year, German Green economic affairs and climate action minister Robert Habeck said that gas storage facilities owned by Gazprom in Germany had been “systematically emptied” over the winter, to drive up prices and exert political pressure. It was a staggering admission of Russia’s power to disrupt energy supplies.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389006#Comment_119389006

I'd prefer to live in America than Russia personally.

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387773#Comment_119387773

You misunderstand how renewables work. Renewables must always be supplemented by gas / oil / coal / turf / other fossil fuels. Why? Becasue these fuels can react quickly to support the grid when renewables can not generate. When can they not generate? When the sun is not out / the wind is not strong enough (or is too strong).

The laod profile is dynamic as is the power available from renewables so we have to be able to ramp up / down the power injected into the grid from other forms of power generation (to date that is from fossil fuels). It is not as straight forward as going "100% green"

Yes, renewables are part of the solution, as is battery storage, but these technologies can not work in isoaltion of fossil fuels. Nuclear in my view is also part of the solution but due to it's protracted response time it can not support renewables in the way we need it to.

I have worked in the renewables sector for a number of years.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388754#Comment_119388754

Can an argument be made that Merkel was not a fifth columnist?

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389109#Comment_119389109

To make that statement you should live in both and see which is better for you.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389066#Comment_119389066

Ah now you can't ignore that fact that as Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications he's directly responsible for this. There is no way he is going out to bat for Irish people. This is the man who said that he would be happy with a one world dictatorship if it meant that his ideological targets could be met. So I'll leave it for others to decide if he is going to put the interests of Irish people first.

https://twitter.com/DnalOBrien2/status/1551489719283875840

We have been warned that there are going to be rolling blackouts this winter, and with these proposed gas cuts more people will not be able to heat their homes. More people die in winter from excess cold than from the heat that RTE and the media have been scaremongering about the last 10 days. But I suppose that Irish people freezing to death is a price he's willing to pay?

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388984#Comment_119388984

The Germans, commission and the ECB were pushing for an even higher rate and rather unbelievably it was the IMF that pulled them back. You talk about how Irish bonds were trading at twice the rate, well bunds at the time were trading at 2.5% around then and anything above 2.7% was considered punishment. Which looking back, it was what it was, and we need to keep how we were treated in the back of our minds now.

But we shouldn't forget that they funded us at a rate over two times what they were paying, so perhaps if we have to give them gas they can pay us over two times what we will pay for it,? Moral hazard and all that bollocks...

The alternative for us was no money, the alternative for them should be no gas.

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388448#Comment_119388448

I think we should bailout Germany but at the same time we should not forget that during the last bailout, it was them that came to us not the other way round. In that sense the financial crisis bailout was very different from traditional bailouts by the likes of the IMF where the country in need approaches the lending organization which then considers their application.

They came to us. We didn't go to them. They are coming to us again now.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389195#Comment_119389195

I said three times, though a) it was slightly less than that and b) it was somewhat theoretical as it is not clear we could have accessed it at all.

It is somewhat unclear to me why exactly you think they should have just offered us the same rate they were getting. Our rates were exceptionally high for a reason. It most certainly did not "benefit" Germany to do this, its a bizarre thing to have a chip on your shoulder about.

Anyway, the EU is not going to put in a mandatory cut as they won't get support for it (as I speak they have reached a deal with massive carveouts and exemptions). But everyone should and needs to cut their usage anyway as being beholden to a belligerent foreign power isn't a very good idea. Germany are being somewhat hypocritical about all this, but this is not remotely unusual in the field of international politics.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389140#Comment_119389140

I know if lived in Russia I wouldn't be able to say a bad word against it.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389177#Comment_119389177

How people have "frozen" to death in Ireland in the last 50yrs.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389295#Comment_119389295

I don't have a chip on my shoulder but what is good for the goose, is good for the gander. The request to reduce gas consumption across the continent is for the good of the German economy primarily because it is quite possible that they will run out in winter - just like it was possible that Ireland would run out of money in 2010. Ireland needed solidarity at the time and it came with more than 100% markup. They set that price so I don't see why they should pay less than that now when they are looking for it.

If a bomb can go off in Dublin, the generators can go silent in Berlin and they should be reminded of that.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389354#Comment_119389354

Why? what do you think happens if you speak "a bad word against it"?

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389066#Comment_119389066

Seemingly so!!!

Mike Murdock

They really shouldn't have closed all their Nuclear Power Plants.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389415#Comment_119389415

Well Mr Music I think you are off in dreamland believing f-cking up the German economy (if it does have a huge energy crunch and all the other EU countries refuse to help them with it) will have no impact whatsoever on the rest of us, but I suppose we'll see.

I expect it is going to be hang together or hang separately as regards gas & energy over the next few years, kind of the same as in the economic crisis, which was ultimately about the Eurozone surviving.

On the bailouts, well we got that money and even Greece got money and survived and the country remained in the Euro, despite the conditions placed on them. Not getting the money + Germany (and other EU "contributors" to the bailouts I suppose) just saying f-ck you, wasn't us that went wild on the strong Euro credit card now its time for you to pay the piper, that would have been interesting to see!

Could have made for some very, very nasty Argentina-style times in Ireland during the 00s I'd say, I'd probably have emigrated if I could...

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389556#Comment_119389556

I can't say...

Ouch Chinese Byrne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388452#Comment_119388452

I can’t believe you compared a default and bailout from 80-90 years ago and even comparing Germany from back then to now

Do you think Ukraine should get a bailout which they will need when this is over?

Labaik

Surely the Germans aren't going to bite there nose off to spite there face with regards Russian gas. Is Ukraine really worth sacrificing the stability of European gas supplies? They should stop the sanctions against Russia and buy there gas and stop this nonsense. We really are been ruled by idiots.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390252#Comment_119390252

Unfortunately any good will (trust) people had in Russia's intentions even from doing business with them, are unfixable, due to Russian actions.