Germany needs a bailout

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400243#Comment_119400243

I suggest you use the cooker/oven 👍️

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400270#Comment_119400270

Bit hard when its an electric oven and hob and the reliable renewable energy is off because there's no wind and it's dark for 2+ hours at that stage, isn't it!

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400286#Comment_119400286

At some stage you might make a point, at the moment it is just incoherent rambling, something about wind and now about the dark.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400374#Comment_119400374

No point really given you have no intention of engaging in any meaningful discussion. Best of luck!

SeanW

No, nothing has been answered. Renewables need the sun to be shining or the wind to be blowing. Without storage (which is not feasible on any kind of scale) you have no electricity when the wind dies down and/or the sun sets. We cannot expand dams much more if at all, and there's no other storage mechanism that is any way close to being financially sensible.

We've already poured stupid amounts of money into renewables and have f all to show for it.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400286#Comment_119400286

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400387#Comment_119400387

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397972#Comment_119397972

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399589#Comment_119399589

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400243#Comment_119400243

This is the last posts from you. Then you accuse me of not having a meaning conversation.

If you want to discuss renewable then as I said a balance of renewables is required. Not just wind or solar. Also potentially a back up of something, probably gas.

This is nothing new, this has been discussed for years.

Complaining that renewables don't provide electricity just proves that Ireland has not invested in large scale renewables. If we did then we wouldn't be talking about the country been crippled if gas is switched down

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400444#Comment_119400444

And we are told the reason we have F-all is because we should have pumped vast unquantifiable quantities more into renewal and then we'll all somehow be ok, even if it's a particularly long spell of extremely calm weather with only a few hours of sun in a typical winter day.

Yet when pushed on this the likes of BA can only resort to snide remarks, responding repeatedly with "do your research" and trying to make out those genuinely questionining how renewable can supply 100% of our electrical needs 100% of the time are the ones being unreasonable.

No answers. No concrete plans. Just ideology and blind faith in the cause.

Tonesjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400243#Comment_119400243

Some sort of community oven where each W and KW Is monitored. Individuals will have a weekly allowance of power. Anything used over the allowance will be deducted from income by revenue at a super high premium rate.

The ovens will be powered by solar, immigrant labour, Eamon Ryan's lettuce plantation and the smugness of South Dublin do gooder gobshites

brickster69

Hanover becomes Germany's first city to bring in rules on saving gas.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62335911

StrawbsM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119402373#Comment_119402373

https://twitter.com/gsahathevan/status/1552929220032344064?s=21&t=-jugzJPtODcnxkY1wJSSVg

If that 52% figure is true, why the need for drastic action?

brickster69

New levy to be brought in for consumers to help support energy companies. Talk everywhere of 4/500 Euro energy bills coming and this month alone the gas price has risen 70%. We could quite easily in Europe see 800 Euro / month energy bills by Christmas maybe more quite easily.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Gas-Levy-Could-Triple-Household-Heating-Bills-In-Germany.html

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119402625#Comment_119402625

Because they don't heat houses or run their blast furnaces on electricity

Thinkingaboutit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400249#Comment_119400249

'Green energy' is only nominally economic through subsidy which every bill payer pays. Look at your bill and you will see a levy for 'renewable energy.' I suspect you work for one of these 'green energy' which is Ireland's version of the 419 scam, given how much you shill for it. Presently Moneypoint is now producing far below its capacity. Mr Eamon 'bicycle in the state car' Ryan (which was deboooonked but is actually true. ER is just not allocated his own ministerial car) envisages closing it in two or three short years. The offshore hydrogen meme replacement is little more than a mockery of the ordinary Irish citizen and taxpayer. If subsidies ended for renewables, this country would be covered with rotting, non recycleable eye sores, aka wind farms and solar panels made with the most noxious chemicals possible in PRC or Vietnam and other places that care nothing for environmental regs.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119402072#Comment_119402072

I'm a little intrigued , how much money has the Irish government spent of wind power ?

And in answer to your question what happens when the wind doesn't blow ? We burn gas .. in our existing gas burning power stations .. but we burn a lot less because they're not on all the time ..

Think of it as a having a car ... But sometimes you use your bicycle - and youre thinking of getting an electric bike because you're likely to use it more , you'll still have your car ..you just don't need to use it as much ,saving on petrol, running costs and getting you a bit fitter .. but when you need to go to woodies across town to buy 20 liters of paint ,you'll use the car..

Markcheese

Subsidies have ended for some of the older ,smaller wind turbines - and they're still in production ..

In a period when wholesale gas is as expensive as it is ,it's a real plus to use less of it ..

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404261#Comment_119404261

I suppose the counter to that analogy is that you still need a car, and likely a car of the same size.

You've reduced your car trips from ten a week to 3, but your car doesn't get 2/3 smaller or cheaper because you have your electric bike. The car loan is still the same. You spend less on petrol, but the car still needs servicing and is still depreciating (maybe a bit less, but in no way proportional to it's use).

Imagine then you have a family. You decide to get them all electric bikes. But once a month the whole family needs to take a trip down the country, so you need to buy a bigger car also.

I'm inclined to agree (partly) with other posters. Renewables are great when they work, but there's no better, cheaper, on-demand, and easily stored energy source than fossil fuels. We're going nowhere until that problem is solved. When you need reliable electricity 24/7 you need to have the capability to generate that electricity on-demand. We need a lever to pull when we want more electricity or less. Power stations have this lever. Renewables do not.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119403020#Comment_119403020

If they think that they can get people paying 500 per month as "gas levy" they are in for a surprise. That idea will turn to quite fast government change. As for Ireland I have no doubt the same will happen here. People went mad when government tried to implement water charges.

What is the most hilarious is that there is plenty of gas so cue in new German government with hat in their hand in Moscow some time this winter.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388233#Comment_119388233

I think Austerity is the word you are looking for but a great point. It's one rule for Germany and another for it's little pets like us.

Why is nobody mentioning the elephant in the room, that is, how well the US are doing in all of this. This has done wonders for the dollar and US Oil markets. It has been detrimental to the euro and left us presenting our rears to all those we depend on for energy (throw a fake climate crisis in there too to really exacerbate the problem)

The US and Russia never have been and never will be at war, but they sure do seem to generate unprecedented profits from all the wars they start.

lawred2

Urm isn't domestic inflation in double figures in the US. Hardly doing well.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404620#Comment_119404620

That's not the only howler (...though this war does benefit them hugely politcally/geo-politically by both weakening Russia severely, and bringing European countries into closer alliance with + dependence on the US, there's only a few specific sectors in the US that benefit economically I think).

He was off on a rant about "one rule for them and another rule for us" too, which is correct, but not in the way meant.

Germany will have to cut its gas use by 15 % (if irc) whatever happens e.g. see the pro Putin/Russia & pro Brexit maggot brickster69 crowing above about a German city cutting back.

We've been exempted from the EU use reductions + burden sharing etc. that sparked the anger of the opening post, so it is all moot (now) in a way.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404620#Comment_119404620

The US are doing something about it at least and their strong underlying economy gives them the scope to do so.

The euro barely buys you a dollar it's so weak!

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404261#Comment_119404261

Don't have figures to hand but will come back on it.

In terms of gas usage, the majority of our gas plants are configured as Combined Cycle Gas Turbine which can't be turned up or down quickly or frequently. They also have a very narrow band of peak efficiency which tends to be under near maximum load.

Therefore if 50% of normal gas turbine load is met by wind it does not equate to anything near a 50% reduction in gas consumption.

Further, if wind meets 100% of grid demand for several hours, a certain number of these gas plants must still be kept running and thus consuming a significant proportion of gas relative to what they otherwise would consume under full output, just in case demand spikes past generation or wind output suddenly dips below demand.

Eirgrid are looking to put in different types of gas generation known as open cycle - these can be stopped and started several times a day as needed and come on or offline in a matter of minutes so don't need to be run in the background "just in case". The drawback of that flexibility however is a significantly lower comparible efficiency, so you end up consuming more gas and thus emitting more CO2 and NOx for the same electrical output compared to traditional gas generation.

Ultimately, renewables like wind or solar directly will not allow us to realise significant reductions in either fossil fuel consumption or emissions output. Adding more turbines is not going to help if the wind simply isn't blowing nor will solar help significantly when our grid peak tends to align with the months with shortest daylight hours and least sun.

SeanW

It's beyond insane that this above actually has to be explained.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404676#Comment_119404676

Of course Ireland is exempted from burden sharing because there is no way to share the burden. No storage, no LNG terminals and no pipelines to send it to anyone. It is totally impossible anyway ?

Saying that it looks highly unlikely Ireland suffers shortages, certainly higher prices like everyone else in the world.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2022/07/29/families-could-face-annual-energy-bills-of-4700-following-hike/

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404893#Comment_119404893

Yes, the opening post (and many others on thread) have had very little to do with Ireland's real situation. It is more about the need to have a rant about Germany, partly for the policy mistake of trusting in Russia & Putin, but mostly for the fun of re-litigating the economic crisis and bailout period.

edit: I wouldn't have said it was "highly unlikely" we'll have gas shortages in Ireland (the experts quoted in your article don't either).

Very odd for you not to be promoting the gloomiest and most doom-laden (for us in EU, the best possible for Putin & Russia of course...) scenario!

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404790#Comment_119404790

"Therefore if 50% of normal gas turbine load is met by wind it does not equate to anything near a 50% reduction in gas consumption."

Not an expert but I'm curious what the percentage is. So for example you invest in wind turbines that produce a certain amount of energy over the course of a year in a country like Ireland. What percentage of this energy offsets the equivalent amount of energy in gas or fossil fuels over the course of the same year and what percentage is wasted due to startup/shutdown cycles in fossil fuel generation etc?

That's what the argument comes to, imo.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404946#Comment_119404946

It is fact. How is Ireland going to have shortages ? Prices going through the roof is the worst case and probably inevitable but people will just naturally cut back what they use anyway because lot's of people cannot afford the bills. Also the state will have to step in with financial support at some point to help.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405062#Comment_119405062

Although they did not go into detail, the scenario the article hints at is some Norway-EU-UK disagreements over who is getting what amounts of gas in context of there not being enough of it to go around for all perhaps (even with demand reduction caused by pricing?).

Ireland is at the end of all those pipeline systems, where others either control the spigots or provide the supply. So picture in that article is we are a helpless spectator, hoping it all stays amicable, cooperative and good natured + we don't get caught in a cross fire or deployed as a convenient pawn.

You'd hope it is somewhat unlikely, but UK govt. in particular is a very loose cannon over the last few years, which any time there is a disagreement with the EU in the offing, tends to opt for and enjoy confrontation and hostilty as a matter of principle. In any case, I don't think Ireland can do anything about this risk for the winter ahead.

If you disagree with that article and think shortages are (in fact) impossible or extremely unlikely, then maybe you could explain the reason why, seeing as you posted it?

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405209#Comment_119405209

Well the only way i can see shortages in Ireland is if the UK cut Ireland's supply off. Hard to imagine that happening unless some major accident happened or something.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119406554#Comment_119406554

It wouldn't have to be "cut off" completely to cause some problems here would it? Would reducing it not be enough? As you reminded us yourself we have no gas storage available here. We have no ability to source any new or extra supply (an EU gas pipeline or an LNG terminal) independent of UK govt. control. They are in the same, or an even stronger position wrt. us, as Russia is with Germany or Eastern countries in the EU. As per your posted article, EU-UK relations are very, very poor right now. There's not much in the way of communication or cooperation going on at a political level anyways (which might be needed this winter). I don't think they are going to improve under Liz Truss.

It is strange you say you can't imagine that ever happening to Ireland + believe it is impossible while you are joyfully doom posting away about the EU and effects of Russia-sanctions, Russia using natural resources to bully the EU countries to stop supporting Ukraine etc., even scouting about to find odd content on various armpits of the internet (something called the "Counter Signal" here, "Coach Red Pill" and a Kremlin funded/influenced German news website I think it was on Russia thread) in support of your views on sanctions, Ukraine war etc.

It's a curious blind spot. Maybe it is unlikely, and I would have thought it to be more profitable for UK and EU to work together in the face of energy problems than begin some brand new rows over their gas supplies this winter, but so many low likelyhood but very damaging risks have been hitting us the last few years it makes one more nervous.