What is the the root of this behaviour..

Mrs OBumble · 27-07-2022 7:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119393880#Comment_119393880

Probably people of people thought the same about him as an adult.

The Nal · 28-07-2022 9:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119395921#Comment_119395921

Seems it was in secondary school anyway going by the above article. I was referring to him in primary school.

archer22 · 28-07-2022 9:44am

He's going to get a pension!!....this must be the most bizarre ridiculous country on earth.

Ripley's believe it or not should do an episode on Ireland!.

Leg End Reject · 28-07-2022 9:50am

I wonder what state agencies she was critical of? Surely the HSE is one, Moody was barred from the hospital but it doesn't seem to have been followed up in any meaningful way.

I'm delighted that he willingly handed over his phone to try to harrass a member of her family, he obviously thought he was so smart and untouchable.

whisky_galore · 28-07-2022 9:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397901#Comment_119397901

If he only dialled it back a bit he'd have made sergeant.

28-07-2022 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391005#Comment_119391005

One way to look at that is you are lucky. You are lucky to have gotten this far in life and maintained such a level of - well some people might call it ignorance or naivety - but you could also call it innocence - that you have not reached a position in life where you can understand something like this.

I can understand parts of it by drawing on other areas of my experience of the darkness of life. But not all of it. So I know what you mean to say it is difficult to understand. Perhaps I should treasure my own innocence sometimes.

It does not help that many people look at any attempt to understand the victim as being "Victim blaming" or any attempt to understand the perpetrator as "seeking to excuse them". It is anything but. The concept of "Taking Ownership" either as a perpetrator, a victim, or an outside observer requires that motivations and incentives and head space get looked at. Understanding and explaining and even empathy - are not and never should be confused with excusing or blaming.

If it helps though - the two norries podcast interviewed Barrister Doireann O'Mahony about her experience of being in an abusive and coercive relationship. She gives quite a raw and open perspective on your question. She puts it well when she says that the interesting question is actually not why the victim keeps going back to such relationships - but how they finally got out of it.

But she does shed a lot of light and perspective on the aspect of going back to it. How a constant erosion of self worth over time can lead the victim to feel they almost deserve it. There is also "shame" which the Two Norries themselves talk about very very often indeed. The shame of events during the dark times can lead people not to seek help and not to break free - and actually falling back into the thing which is causing the shame can in a cyclical way become their only escape from that shame too. Which to us outside seems paradoxical and nonsensical - but is very much their reality.

And the victim in this thread's case might seem vulnerable to us as she was dying of cancer during the experience too. So another angle is to see someone at the height of studying and youth and health - pursuing a relatively high career for our land - so not someone who would instantly strike you as vulnerable - but still caught in a coercive and abusive relationship.

Anyway if it interests you really - it is episode #87 of The Two Norries podcast.

Dial Hard · 28-07-2022 11:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119398316#Comment_119398316

You've taken that poster's comments completely the wrong way. He's a self-confessed serial controller and manipulator himself, the confusion isn't coming from innocence or naïvete, believe me.

Jequ0n · 28-07-2022 11:27am

@[Deleted User] thanks I might give it a go. I have heard similar accounts before but there are some aspects that I cannot comprehend, possibly because I am sometimes lacking the ability to see things from other perspectives.

@Dial Hard True, but having grown up with parents in such a dynamic I am still puzzled because I can’t understand why and how my mother made certain decisions. Maybe I’ll never understand.

28-07-2022 11:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119398352#Comment_119398352

Thanks for the heads up but - I can't know that as I know nothing about the user. But even if I did - I generally do not view posts I make on this forum as being directed at the person I am actually replying to. Rather I see it as a group conversation - where I am replying to anyone who might be asking the same things - or thinking the same ways - as the person I am actually replying to.

A motivation for this is I get PMs at times on this site for posts I made 10 or more years ago - saying that my post was exactly what they needed in that moment and they had come across it while searching for certain key words and topics.

As for Manipulators and Abusers - many of them know exactly what they are doing to control their victim. But some of them do not. They might know much of what they are doing is wrong. But they themselves do not always know how what they are doing is achieving it. One manipulator might do X because they know it will help keep the victim coming back. The next might just do X without knowing why and just gain that effect.

So it does irk me a little when I see threads like this where an attempt to look at motivations, incentives, on any side is seen like you must be either "Victim Blaming" or "Perpetrator Excusing". Perhaps some people are doing that. But seeking to understand - even to empathize - should be seen as separate entirely from blaming or excusing.

Just like if we are taking ownership of things in our own life - bad things we might have done - identifying the action or inaction of others in our life as being motivators is not to blame them or excuse ourselves - but to understand that if we want to grow into the best versions of ourselves we might need to understand - and even remove if necessary - some incentives and triggers and sources in our lives.

EmmetSpiceland · 28-07-2022 11:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397901#Comment_119397901

Breaking the law doesn’t have any effect on your pension, not unless it’s going to be used to pay back people after some sort of fraud, or embezzlement.

He, is now, a former Garda so he will get a pension based on his salary and service but it will be effected by his service being cut short.

The Nal · 28-07-2022 11:58am

Well hes going to need his pension. He'll be 43 or maybe 44 when he gets out and unemployable for the rest of his life.

Potential employer Googling Paul Moody.....

Leg End Reject · 28-07-2022 12:16pm

I wouldn't be surprised if he's found dead in his cell.

archer22 · 28-07-2022 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119398547#Comment_119398547

"a pension based on his salary and service" thats my point he's getting a pension based on his "service". ie engaging in horrendous criminality and abusing his position.

He should be required to pay back the money he was paid, not given more.

EmmetSpiceland · 28-07-2022 1:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399041#Comment_119399041

Yeah, maybe the fact he was a public servant they could do something but I don’t think it would stand up to a legal challenge.

Leg End Reject · 28-07-2022 1:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399041#Comment_119399041

No, his abuse of Garda power shouldn't have gone unchecked for so long. He had a colleague transfer his victim's call to him, he used the pulse system for his abuse and harassment, he was barred from a hospital etc., how did all of that go unnoticed over a 2 and a half year period?

CPTM · 28-07-2022 1:57pm

What sort of person over the age of 27 has time or energy to write 700 texts in a single day. Is this stuff on the same spectrum as graham dwyer/50 shades of grey? Somewhere between the two? Maybe it was a turn on to be controlling someone else.

Floppybits · 28-07-2022 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399145#Comment_119399145

He must not have been very busy in work if he was able to send 700 texts in a day, What would that work out at a text every couple of minutes?

The Nal · 28-07-2022 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399695#Comment_119399695

Assuming he slept for 6 or 7 hours its about 1 every 40 seconds.

Hes clearly a maniac.

Leg End Reject · 28-07-2022 3:48pm

Christ, here's another. He got a 17 year sentence, but didn't plead guilty, had previous convictions and was charged with multiple offences.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0728/1312733-courts-coercive/

PalLimerick · 28-07-2022 3:58pm

I never realised we have so many mental health experts on here with good looks and ageless features.

Having said that the "Man" in question here the ex Garda deserves 10 years and a good slapping.

I wish the Woman well in her future and her health. She is free now or at least free from a monster.

Jequ0n · 28-07-2022 4:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399145#Comment_119399145

It is clearly obsessive.

The constant bombardment with messages/ calls etc simply serves to keep the victim booked and constantly within reach. There will have been an expectation to respond to him at all times too.

One Who Waits... · 28-07-2022 4:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399777#Comment_119399777

That is shocking. Decent sentence for a change. Bullet in the back of the head is what he should get. Really makes me wonder what kind of scumbags walk among us.

Hangdogroad · 29-07-2022 8:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399777#Comment_119399777

There are some people you know are utter creeps just to look at.

CreadanLady · 29-07-2022 11:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390257#Comment_119390257

That might be the reason given, but the reality of it is that there simply isn't enough prison space to accommodate all the people we might like to imprison, and to keep them there for as along as we would like, and there is no votes to be got by spending money ob building new prisons.

EmmetSpiceland · 29-07-2022 5:22pm

A quick “red flag” to look out for with people like this is the locking of internal doors around the house.

This is, usually, a clear sign of someone who likes to, and wants to, be in control. Hang around them long enough and more signs will reveal themselves.

Try not to let it get that far, if you can. If you see the locked doors inside, about the house, just get out and don’t look back.

Annasopra · 30-07-2022 10:46am

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0729/1313011-gang-rape-sentencing/

I struggle to understand how on earth these 3 men have partners who actively support them.

Larbre34 · 30-07-2022 10:57am

In all these cases, its the presence of narcissistic sociopathic personality disorder in the offender.

This isn't a mental illness, as such, which can be genetic, medical, acquired or environmental, but more straightforwardly a personality disorder, which is almost certainly environmental, though research into the depth of this is ongoing.

A narcissistic sociopath describes a dangerous person who demonstrates traits and symptoms of both narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) and antisocial personality disorder (APD). They derive satisfaction from manipulating, deceiving, using, and abusing others in order to get what they want.

Your classic examples include Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein.

Wanderer78 · 30-07-2022 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407056#Comment_119407056

all cluster b's alright, was just watching an interview on histrionic, mental stuff really, apd also comes to mind in this case, so thats very likely the disorder at play

Jequ0n · 30-07-2022 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407056#Comment_119407056

In some cases, yes, but not in all. Not every person who choses to do hurt others has a pd.

Likewise there are many people with these diagnoses who do not behave in such a way.

Wanderer78 · 30-07-2022 11:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407166#Comment_119407166

what other types of disorders could be involved, other than cluster b's?

Jequ0n · 30-07-2022 11:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407168#Comment_119407168

Some people are just plain arseholes, even without a pd. Sadism is not exclusively linked to aspd either. It’s possible the guy has a Cluster b pd, and he will surely be assessed for it.

But aspd and npd are not always the reasons why people do such things. Disordered or not, each person still has the choice to do something or leave it.

Larbre34 · 30-07-2022 5:05pm

They do have the choice, like any person, but when your inclinations and compulsions are strong due to a PD....'disordered or not' becomes a very unequal ratio.

There's also no chance he/they'll be assessed for it in prison, why would they waste the resources? Its not like it needs to be established for a trial, they've already been convicted and shown to have criminal responsibility, whether they have a PD or not is irrelevant to their confinement. I mean the Garda is hardly likely to be in general pop. in any case, is he?

Wanderer78 · 30-07-2022 6:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119408299#Comment_119408299

maybe appropriate assessments and treatment in the prison system could prevent future crimes, maybe!

Sardonicat · 30-07-2022 6:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119408801#Comment_119408801

There is no treatment.

Wanderer78 · 30-07-2022 6:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119408850#Comment_119408850

im aware theres no treatment for some cluster b disorders, but appropriate supports may help some within the judicial system, and outside of it, we must continue researching such disorders, in order to try understand them, in the hope of developing future treatments

Larbre34 · 30-07-2022 9:36pm

As a first priority, we must provide an active system of escape, shelter and confidence for people, mainly Women, such as the victims in this week's sentencing hearings.

Its almost impossible to detect and treat Cluster Bs before they commit an offence, as making a change to themselves is not something that interests them. Limiting their ability to abuse victims by increasing awareness and help for those victims as early as possible, is the best investment.

Jequ0n · 30-07-2022 9:56pm

There is some treatment but in most cases it’s not very effective, and a large number of affected people will not avail of it. These blanket statements and stereotypes are somewhat counter productive.

The Nal · 31-07-2022 10:28am

More to come

Sardonicat · 31-07-2022 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119408865#Comment_119408865

Any successful treatment depends solely on the willingness to engage with treatment. The basic personality structure cannot be altered. You can't make someone not take pleasure in causing suffering. You can, if the individual is open to it, support them in reflecting on their behaviour and its impact on others. Help them gain insight, so to speak. BUT it's not always such a good idea to give manipulators the tools to become even better at manipulating.

The execption I'd make here is with Boderline Personality Disorder, now known as Emotional Disregulation Disorder. Very unfairly lumped together with other cluster B disorders, but the root cause of their behaviour is an attempt to control overwhelming and fluctuating emotional states. Very treatable once the sufferer is open to it.

I don't accept in any way that people who are classified as NPD or APD are in any way ill. I see those labels merely as a way to medically classify clusters of specific behaviours and character traits, nothing more. I also don't accept they lack empathy. They are people who choose to act in ways that are solely beneficial to themselves because they simply do not care about how their actions affect others. They choose not to care. You can't manipulate others if you lack empathy, because in order to understand what motivates others, what will cause pain to others, you have to have empathy. These people are just wicked, evil, whatever word for bad to the bone that you want to use. They choose their behaviours that harm others because they enjoy harming others. They are scum. Nothing more complicated than that.

Jequ0n · 31-07-2022 11:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119410874#Comment_119410874

I actually agree with a lot you are saying, though not all of it. The problem is that most people don’t realise that there are different types of empathy, and cognitive empathy can be learned even though the other types can be severely impacted, or missing entirely in some cases.

At the end of the day it’s down to each individual what they chose to do, and they do know right from wrong. That’s why you will have crossed paths with people suffering from these pds without ever having realised it. Not all act on their impulses or have violent tendencies.