China’s Army posts “Preparing for war!”

thomil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430344#Comment_119430344

There's actually method to that madness, and that's to reduce the time that air defence has to react, especially when it comes to naval warfare. Most anti-ship missiles currently in use, like Exocet or Harpoon fly at high subsonic speeds, while staying close to the surface, in order to reduce the time that a target ship has to launch their own surface to air missiles, engage with their CIWS weapons (Phalanx, Goalkeeper, RIM-121, etc.) or launch countermeasures. Against subsonic missiles, these systems are relatively effective. They do however struggle against supersonic missiles like the Russians introduced in the 1990s. A hypersonic sea-skimming missile would be able to cross the 50 or so kilometres where the ship's air search radar can detect even low-flying targets in no time, giving the target ship no chance to defend itself.

There are of course ways to defeat these weapons, but you'll need long range radar or AEW aircraft like the E-2D Hawkeye or the E-8 Wedgetail to even have a chance of detecting these missiles far enough ahead of time to bring surface to air missile to bear against them.

SortingYouOut

Crazy the last few months how many potentially earth shattering decisions that impact all of us have been made by such a small number of people. Then we're all ranting about China this and Russia that, or the US etc...

Would sicken your hole as the majority of the people in these countries are just trying to live a life.

Entertaining though being able to class them all as sides.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429764#Comment_119429764

Japan could likely demolish China's military all by itself. It doesn't need American support considering the state of the Japanese navy, and airforce. Beijing would be utterly retarded to go to war with them, especially now that their newest government is far more supportive of Japan going openly militant again.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429800#Comment_119429800

I would say Chinese backed North Korea are far more despotic than Saudi Arabia.

Someone refresh my memory, has dictator xi an important conference coming up this Autumn/Winter sometime, when he tries to extend his reign?

Perhaps Pelosi's motive, or part of it, is to embarrass him before than in the hope it emboldens a more reasonable or acceptable challenger.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430642#Comment_119430642

I wouldn't.

Saudi Arabia affect far more people and nations than N.Korea stuck in their hole. Also far more foreigners end up living in SA than in N.Korea..

N.Korea are of very limited concern. Saudi Arabia have their fingers in many pies.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430589#Comment_119430589

What you're staying is correct, but the issue with these missiles is that they are produced in incredibly low numbers, and incredibly high cost. Which means any Nation isn't going to have a huge number with which to dedicate against any critical infrastructure, which is needed if you're going to actually knock something out. For example they're not going to knock out Guam's air base with one hypersonic missile with a conventional warhead, they're going to need multiples of it. Anything that could be accomplished by using such a missile in such a fashion, can likely be done better more cheaply with conventional cruise missiles.

They're not a war-winning weapon, and would likely precipitate a massive retaliation. They're weapons of opportunity, whose most likely value for the Chinese would be in trying to target a carrier.

Akrasia

I cant believe this topic isnt even a trending post on boards.ie

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430723#Comment_119430723

I think you need to look up the definition of despot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119431414#Comment_119431414

Why?

The Saudi royal family have complete power along with the wealth to reinforce their position.

So perhaps you should write more than a single sentence, if you want to be clear on your pov.. for the the rest of us, that is. In any case, your own sentence/phrasing categorised both nations as being despotic so you opened that door first.

thebaz

Now China have pulled out of Climate change talks and agreements - really an egotistical move by career politician and supposedly political correct Pelosi , that was not needed , and does harm on so many fronts , ther are many situations/ countrys that are wrong but you dont inflame the situation when ther is so much conflict in the world including Climate change - if China are not onboard with this , it will be a disaster for Green agenda and global warming.

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430641#Comment_119430641

I get the impression of the JSDF being up to NATO standard with their troops & kit, so they'd make for a solid fighting force I feel. Beijing would likely love to go to war with Japan for the propaganda value of it. Japan are the big boogieman of China's past and feature prominently as the villians in pretty much any war drama on Chinese TV (of which there are many). A war with Japan would be sold as payback for WWII, which the population would likely buy into in droves.

But actually fighting the JSDF and trying to invade Japan? That would be insane. The Japanese home islands are historically difficult to invade, with few natural landing spots, challenging crossing conditions in the Sea of Japan, and Japan itself is a combination of urban sprawl & dense mountain areas. Much of this eliminates China's numeric advantage, and even the original allied plan to invade the home-islands in WWII estimated about 1 million dead in the attempt. I don't fancy China's chances.

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432120#Comment_119432120

One could argue that China weren't seriously onboard with climate change talks to be begin with. Their MO is typically to try to gleen as many opt-outs as possible under the excuse of them being a "developing" nation. In other words they just want to rubber-stamp their business as usual pollution of pretty much everything.

Taiwan has just given them an excuse to disengage with a sense of righteous indignation. If it wasn't this, it would probably have been something else down the road. It's not Pelosi's fault that they can't be mature about this critical issue.

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432209#Comment_119432209

I am as critical and cynical on China and its leader as anyone , but now was not the time to inflame the situation , when ther is already a war raging in the East, I just feal it was Pelosis ego to go ,when ther was really no need , not sure either the Taiwanese people wanted her to come, and endure the current fear, it will be the ordinary people that suffer not leaders like Pelosi.

is_that_so

More, non-military responses from China and Nancy has been sanctioned!

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-halts-military-ties-us-sanctions-pelosi-taiwan-visit-rcna41682

EOQRTL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429817#Comment_119429817

2 whales and a school of mackerel apparently. They are very angry, Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

EOQRTL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432120#Comment_119432120

Yeah it's Pelosi's fault, nothing to do with the disgusting murderous CCP party.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432209#Comment_119432209

I dunno. I've seen a lot of change over the years in China regarding their approaches to pollution, and waste creation. They've sought to change their coal power plants to more environmentally friendly installations, they've implemented recycling efforts in most population centres, incentivised electric cars and hybrids, etc. It's still an incredibly polluted place (compared to Ireland), but Chinese people know first-hand what it's like to live with that kind of pollution on a daily basis. Environmental awareness is taught in all schools, and again, in Universities, with the line about people doing their bit to clean up the country. Changing the mindset of country takes time.

The thing people should remember is that Europe/the West industrialised during periods where pollution wasn't a serious concern, and was mostly localised. We (western societies) reached the point ahead of everyone else. S.Korea industrialised rather quickly due to it's relatively small size, but has many issues with pollution. Whereas for a huge country like China, industrialisation is a major undertaking (due to territory and population).

I'd say they're pretty serious about climate change because they're experiencing it first hand.. some from their own making, but also the global aspect too. As for the climate change talks themselves, TBH I've always been more than a bit sceptical. I've travelled through the US and seen their own contributions to pollution, and for all the talk, little seems to have changed.. same again with other countries who make superficial changes, or implement policies that end up costing the taxpayer but with limited actual effect on the situation, except that we must always do more.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432131#Comment_119432131

Japan are the big boogieman of China's past and feature prominently as the villians in pretty much any war drama on Chinese TV (of which there are many). A war with Japan would be sold as payback for WWII, which the population would likely buy into in droves.

Japan is the go-to villain in all Chinese propaganda.. but at the same time, they've seriously strong links beyond that. Japanese culture for "young" people is everywhere, from fashion to technology. If you look at the computers and other equipment in Chinese universities, often there's a sticker showing that it was contributed by a Japanese-Chinese agreement. At the same time, propaganda campaigns pop up every so often, student mobs form, and Japanese products/businesses are destroyed while the police stand by watching (although it only really hurts Chinese people themselves).

China/Japan have a complicated relationship.. and I doubt China would want an actual war with them. Much better to have them as a target for propaganda.

Hoop66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427304#Comment_119427304

Stalin was not, as you say, around in the 60s. Neither was the Korean War though (1950-1953).

Better to have some knowledge on the subject before rushing in with your "gotcha", lest you make yourself look foolish.

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432380#Comment_119432380

Was it so essential she go right now - given what is going in the East right now - BTW I am no CCP appologist but sometimes you need to time your move

The main statements of the Chinese Foreign Ministry:

 - China suspends dialogue with the United States at the level of regional military commands;

- China cancels working meetings with representatives of the US Department of Defense;

 - China temporarily suspends cooperation with the United States in the field of combating illegal migration;

 — China suspends cooperation with the United States in the fight against drugs;

— China suspends Sino-US talks on climate change;

 - China suspends cooperation with the United States in the field of justice;

— China suspends cooperation with the United States in the fight against international crime.

Stupid wagon..

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432558#Comment_119432558

My word, Nancy has some power and China's fit of pique continues! If it were a child they'd be dispatched post-haste to their room for an outburst like this! They are actually the ones who want to invade Taiwan and supposedly bring it home, despite there being very little support for a return to China in Taiwan and every likelihood they will fight any invasion with lots of help. For all the ranting and toy throwing it's that Clinton quote - "It's the economy stupid" that really drives China.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432032#Comment_119432032

Yes they are both despotic, however it’s absolutely clear that North Korea is the worse in that respect of the two. Saudis have infinitely more freedoms that Koreans under the Kim Dynasty.

EOQRTL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432517#Comment_119432517

She should be able to go whenever she wants. The kowtowing to the CCP needs to stop. The west have spent far too long being careful with asshats like Xi and Putin and look where it's got us. It's time for Biden to grow a set and visit himself.

EOQRTL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432558#Comment_119432558

China has spent the last 3 years flooding the US with fentanyl so it's pretty farcical from them attempting to say they are suspending cooperation in the fight against drugs.

markodaly

All this talk and sabre rattling is a sign of weakness for China. They are very paranoid. There hasn't been much of a peep from South Korea, Japan or even the Australians on this. THey are probably looking on in amusement at a supposedly strong superpower throwing its toys out of the pram.

AbusesToilets

Russia's brutal invasion of Ukraine, and Chinese sable rattling is coming at an important time for the Pentagon. Giving it the impetus to spur development of long just stating weapons programs, after 2 decades of the forever wars.

At a time when people might rightly have started questioning the ever burgeoning military budget, they've been handed a gold-plated gift from both of these regimes.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433217#Comment_119433217

I'm sure they are delighted, America has reaffirmed their commitment to the region. I would say it's been a great diplomatic excercise .

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429150#Comment_119429150

I'd say they did that on purpose? People here dismiss it as "shooting at fish" etc. but it's quite a large and gaudy tantrum they are throwing for 1 US politician visiting, we would not be so blasé were it taking place in the seas and skies around Ireland that is for sure!

Anyway, as you said in your other post it suits Xi/CCP to do it for several reasons. If this particular visit hadn't been used to justify large military exercises around Taiwan something else would have. They are a bunch of thugs & bullies really. They've also been riling up their population & need to show strength, do something significant after all the wild threats made before her visit. Finally their air force/navy is going to need alot (years) of such large exercises and prep. work to get ready to invade if/when Xi or the next leader says it is time to go...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432661#Comment_119432661

I don't think people are too concerned over what Saudi's do to their own people, but how foreign groups are treated in their country... and the broad influence Saudi Arabia has over countries beyond it's borders. Something N.Korea is very limited by. Also you might want to consider the legal and religious angle of living in Saudi Arabia for Saudi's who are not wealthy and/or don't have the right kind of influence.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433500#Comment_119433500

You don't think that the US will use this situation to increase it's own spending, fix it's ability to project it's conventional strength (as opposed to small/limited deployments), and further establish themselves in Asia?

They certainly will. Both China and the US use these situations to justify ever increased military spending.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433660#Comment_119433660

None of that disputes what I am saying :/ North Korea is a far more despotic regime than Saudi Arabia. In Saudi Arabia you can travel within the county and leave the country, with certain restrictions that would seem absurd to us, sure, but compared to North Korea, where there is close to an absolute ban on internal and external travel, Saudi Arabia is a paradise. It’s widely accepted among human rights groups that North Korea is absolutely unparalleled in respect to its despotic nature.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427478#Comment_119427478

The Chinese civil war never officially ended (like Korea). Therefore two entities continue to exist, the PRC and the ROC. Once again, this is like Korea, where two competing states claim sovereignty over the entire peninsula.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433820#Comment_119433820

Grand, you're limiting the comparison to the term of being despotic. Fine.

SortingYouOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432679#Comment_119432679

This has been called out as fake and not surprising really. It's funny how these leaked documents are always so blurry. Even bog standard phones these days could take a photocopy quality image of a document.

archer22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433820#Comment_119433820

The population of Yemen might disagree with you, also a guy called Khasshoggi might not share your "paradise" opinion if he was still around...and most of the 9/11 hijackers came from that paradise, (none came from "despotic" North Korea).

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432120#Comment_119432120

You think this was not the plan all along say one thing do the other. In one of the climate threads I suggested trusting despotic regimes was a mistake. Met with "well even dictators see this is an issue" or something along them lines. Russia will be next. Then a list of others as they can just say what's the point. I would say India is looking at this. 🤔

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432236#Comment_119432236

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/03/nancy-pelosi-taiwan-visit-reaction/

The public reaction in Taiwan has been largely positive if you'd checked.. If anything, in long run this is literally affirming their position as a state and guaranteed protection from the west.

rock22

I imagine unity and sovereignty is as important to the Chinese as the us here in Ireland.

Would those welcoming Pelosi's visit to Taiwan feel the same if she went to NI and pledged support for the DUP and Brexit and the removal of the protocol?

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119435978#Comment_119435978

I did check - but it depends on which media you believe, many I have read said ther was not outright support for her visit by ordinary people, who I'm sure want to avoid a possible war or live in constant fear, as they are currently.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119436199#Comment_119436199

Link to some, please. In general, Taiwan citizens do not view this as a trigger for a war. Rabble rousing from China is not new and after the disaster in Ukraine for Russia, less likely than ever.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119436062#Comment_119436062

There is at best 10% support for a return to China in Taiwan. It's really not comparable to NI and disastrous legacy of the Brexit.

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119436256#Comment_119436256

If you yourself had checked you would have found many reports :-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/02/mood-shifts-in-taiwan-as-nancy-pelosi-visit-raises-fears-of-war

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433675#Comment_119433675

Once again I don't agree with your equivalences. A US politician's visit to Taiwan is no military threat to China. It does bolster Taiwan's defence, because it confirms the US has a continued interest, so China must consider the US in plans for using force, which is of course a problem for them and introduces doubt.  

China's rhetoric, stuff like these exercises (which unlike Pelosi's visit, from what I read, are unprecedented) is a concrete threat to Taiwan and to Japan and is meant to be read as such externally. Make Taiwan (and less so the US) think twice about other visits. Make Japan think is the danger worth getting involved, once China decide they will take Taiwan by force.

As for the displays boosting those (in the US) who argue to maintain or increase defence expenditure in Asia, of course it does. However if you look at OP (who by his past posts is a QANON believer and Trump supporter) you will see there's a small (but larger than it used to be?) US constituency who would take the opposite view and argue, why on Earth are we so involved in people's struggles and issues half the world away which have nothing to do with the US "homeland"/neighbourhood? Apart from the fact she is a Democrat I think that is also at the root of giving out about Pelosi, calling her a "warmonger", whipping things up etc.

I'm not sure you've thought through your position fully though Klaz, which surprises me as you have lived in China and know alot about Asia (far more than me probably). If the US does what you think it should, stops sticking its beak into Asia (where you perhaps feel it has no business given your incessant "both sides" posts about their hypocrisy, using situations in Asia to futher their own hegemony etc.), while China carries on increasing strength of its military what do you think will happen?

I predict there will be quite the arms race. If Japan, S. Korea (the 2 main US allies in Asia) and I suppose Australia as well think they can't really rely on the US any more they will all arm up in a big way. That's happening anyway to an extent but they are all capable of having stronger militaries than they do now, including nuclear arsenals in some cases. I don't think that will lead to a more stable situation in Asia, far from it.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119434912#Comment_119434912

Because none of the 9/11 hijackers came from North Korea, it’s less despotic than Saudi Arabia? You are actually presenting that as a coherent point?

In terms of Yemen, are you just taking despotic as a synonym for bad? If so, that’s a different conversation and not really a fair comparison. Saudi Arabia is a powerful and wealthy nation in a highly unstable region with huge scope for foreign policy projection. North Korea is far poorer and crucially is surrounded by stable, wealthy, military competent neighbours, it has essentially zero scope for foreign policy projection. Similar to looking at the history of US foreign policy compared to Chinese foreign policy, it’s not comparing like to like, one nation has an almost infinite scope to project abroad while the other is highly constrained.

The North Korean state assassinated Kim’s brother in public, in a foreign country, in a terminal of one of the busiest airports in the world, with nerve agent.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119436434#Comment_119436434

Once again I don't agree with your equivalences. A US politician's visit to Taiwan is no military threat to China. It does bolster Taiwan's defence, because it confirms the US has a continued interest, so China must consider the US in plans for using force, which is of course a problem for them and introduces doubt.

Once again, you're quoting me, then introducing and arguing points I didn't make.

I'm not sure you've thought through your position fully though Klaz, which surprises me as you have lived in China and know alot about Asia (far more than me probably). If the US does what you think it should, stops sticking its beak into Asia (where you perhaps feel it has no business given your incessant "both sides" posts about their hypocrisy, using situations in Asia to futher their own hegemony etc.), while China carries on increasing strength of its military what do you think will happen?

Where did I say that the US should stop it's involvement in either Asia? Cause I haven't. You've taken my take "on both sides", and decided to make it into something else entirely. I don't expect or want the US to withdraw it's interests from Asia, but I would like posters to recognise why they're there as opposed to buying into all the propaganda about defending democracy, and all that lark. But there's no point in repeating myself on this, as it's already been ignored or used to represent something else entirely.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119436709#Comment_119436709

I tried to understand what point you were making there and draw some more conclusions from it. It wasn't totally clear to me, other than "both are to blame here" (what you said to me in another post) and "US is deliberately manipulating this situation to provoke China e.g. Pelosi visit, so they can justify an increased military presence in Asia". Is that the jist?

So if "both are to blame" (which I disagree with), US is to blame isn't it? So how should they approach China to reduce tension?

Logically, all they can really do to calm that situation is stop the overt political support of Taiwan, so no more politicians visiting, no pesky statements made about Taiwan being democratic or Taiwanese being "free to choose their own path", no more weapons sales, and at a minimum not increase or preferably draw down current strength in Asia, move it back home (if decreasing it), because increased capability will certainly further "provoke" China and the peace-loving CCP.

Of course such policies would be fairly nuts for the US to adopt (imo) and won't make the situation more stable, but there you go.

edit: not a reponse to you, but may as well link it here as don't think it was before. Pelosi had an opinion piece a few days ago in Washington Post explaining her rationale for the visit (for what it is worth).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/08/02/nancy-pelosi-taiwan-visit-op-ed/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119436808#Comment_119436808

So if "both are to blame" (which I disagree with), US is to blame isn't it? So how should they approach China to reduce tension?

It's too late to "reduce" tension. The policies of the last decades have ensured that both major powers are direct opponents of each other. The US has never really sought to normalise relations with China, with the rhetoric in American media (by politicians and others) being openly aggressive, along with the condemnation of their influence in Asia.. And... China has been exactly the same, with the same attitudes within their own media, and government announcements. The US has continued to this day, to sail their military forces close to China's mainland territory, tweaking the noses of China, knowing full well the kind of reactions that it would receive.. because if China was to do anything similar to the American mainland, I doubt we'd be hearing cries for patience and tolerance.

It's too late to change the relationship between the US and China. That was set in stone when the US sought to contain Communism, and has been reinforced for the decades thereafter. It's been reinforced with Korea, and Vietnam. It's been reinforced with the establishment of military bases around China's borders, and the placement of military forces to counter Chinese expansionism... all the while, the one example of a foreign power attempting the same to the US, was met with the very real risk of nuclear war.

That is the situation in Asia. Nothing is going to "reduce tension" because that tension is always there, and it's going to be the chosen battleground because anything that might touch the US mainland would result in Nuclear war. Now, whether it's sensible to encourage those tensions to expand, or not.. that's another question.

There is a certain desire to... skip over the contributions of the US to the situation (both the history and the present), instead focusing entirely on China. It's unbalanced, and is one of the reasons that Asia will have its war between China, and the US (and other Asian allies). It's going to happen sooner or later. TBH I was reasonably certain it would have happened by now, if covid hadn't occurred, but the consequences of covid has seriously screwed Chinese society, and the revelations over Ukrainian resistance to a reasonably well-equipped conventional military, so I suspect we won't see an invasion of Taiwan happening any time soon. Still.. the US wants a war before China can narrow the gap in technology enough to be a true threat to them, and all these little gestures contribute towards pushing the Chinese into one. And China will likely want a war to distract their population from it's problems, and before their economy completely shatters. After all, the US has shown the value of having wars to distract the population from internal problems.

The point is to recognise the place of the US in Asia's development because they've been there in spades since WW2, and even before. That involvement bears a responsibility for how things stand today. As the world's major superpower, not just economically, but militarily too... they shouldn't be given such a free pass for how things have turned out.

The best possible outcome for the US and China (from my perspective) is a return to a cold-war stance.. and leave off with the countless gestures designed to tweak noses. There was no need for Pelosi's visit. Biden had on three different occasions previously stated to the media that the US would stand by Taiwan.. as have other presidents before him. The presence of US military personnel in Taiwan guarantees their involvement, as any attack on Taiwan would put their lives at risk, and consequently, the US administration would be obliged to support them. And that's without dealing with the business interests and American citizens living in Taiwan, and the US response to an attack on them. Pelosi's visit was another tweak of the CCP's nose, intended to get a reaction... and they have. The Chinese look stupid and aggressive once again.. but what's the value in showing that? Was anyone unaware that the CCP were aggressive towards their interests in Asia? Nope.

We're not Americans. We should be able to acknowledge the responsibility of the US for what has, and is happening in Asia.. we don't need to buy into all the propaganda that Americans are exposed to. Or that the Chinese are exposed to. We can look at the situation and recognise where/how both parties have managed to set themselves up for a future war... with the rest of Asia in the middle.

brickster69

Lithuania to send delegation to Taiwan for a 5 day visit from Sunday.

https://twitter.com/ChollimaOrg/status/1555918558647177216