Unsolved Irish Mysteries.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583863#Comment_120583863

Oh, yeah, there must be a reason. There has obviously been a major development in this investigation. Garda sources are now treating as "suspects" two (unnamed) brothers who have never previously been referred to publicly.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/two-brothers-emerge-suspects-annie-26888622?int_source=nba

I think this is the most significant sentence in this report which is based on Garda sources.

Sources say they were able to give an account of their whereabouts around the time Annie disappeared but those accounts are now back under the spotlight.

What has changed in the past few months to put their statements back in the spotlight?

This may be a clue

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-41136907.html

Here's my speculation - their alibi is no longer credible which has allowed the Gardai to re-open the case. (I take Alan Bailey with a very large grain of salt - his cold case review went nowhere and he ended up with "IRA man in Johnnie Fox's" as his top theory).

Most alibis are based on a witness confirming that the suspect was with them at the relevant time(s). If the alibi comes from a close relative or friend, the Gardai will test it as best they can but if a witness is willing to lie under oath (and perjury is one of our national sports), then a false alibi will stop an investigation in its tracks.

Of course, someone who gives a false alibi has to live with it for the rest of their lives. If they have a falling out with the criminal, well now.... they could take out a very large life insurance policy or they could disappear into a witness protection programme.

Whatever about the above speculation, if one of these brothers had beaten Annie shortly before the murder and that information "got lost" within the Gardai, that is a major scandal.

NewbridgeIR

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582031#Comment_120582031

The speculation has already started on social media - people saying that they're "part of the golden circle" so that's why nothing was done. The comparison with the Anabel's case has already been made.

The same people conveniently forget that light sentencing is not necessarily determined by class. There's plenty individuals from poor backgrounds walking around with multiple convictions.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584277#Comment_120584277

That actually sounds credible in my opinion. Like where the hell did the faxed statements naming the person who assaulted Annie disappear to? Similar type scenarios have played out in Ireland before like the Mary Boyle case and possibly JoJo Dollard if you like. Prominent local figures have named an ex politicians son to this and have claimed they were told the investigation would go nowhere. Look at the absolute mangling of the Kerry babies case. Gardai trying to blame an innocent woman.

Ireland in the early 90's really was a place of who you know rather than what you did. Maybe now enough time has passed that anyone in positions of influence back then are now out of the picture. Who knows.

The sentencing thing I agree with you on. Without a doubt.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583863#Comment_120583863

Devil’s advocate. Any chance that this wasn’t well intentioned? If someone in Sandymount gave this tip and knew the new suspects, could this have been to throw the investigation off course?

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584439#Comment_120584439

The thing about frauds and crimes where people tend to get away with it is that as few people as possible know about it. What would be interesting is to know who they are related to in the local community for example. It could be something in the area that isn't spoken about but quite a few people suspect who done it.

Regardless of who is to blame I'd prefer that Mrs McCarrick got to lay her daughter to rest and had closure than anyone being held accountable if that makes sense. I think that would mean more to her.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584439#Comment_120584439

Very doubtful. Why would anyone who was not under investigation draw attention to themselves by deliberately giving a false statement? Far from throwing the investigation off-course, if the Gardai suspected the informant was trying to deceive them, that would open a promising line of inquiry regarding the informant's motives.

LunaLoo

I remember seeing a documentary a few years ago about Annie McCarrick, (i think it was donal mcintyre) but thought at the time it was strange not one other person in jonnie foxes could remember her being there. Has the doorman ever been named publicly?

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584647#Comment_120584647

No. Only the doorman. Which according to Annies friends she was very outgoing and would have been talking and interacting with people. They are convinced that more people would have place her at the pub if she were there. I'm of that thinking too.

The doormans surname was Doran iirc. He did give an interview and I saw it somewhere recently. I'd assume to be fair to the guy it was just a case of mistaken identity. Funnily enough he never says that she spoke. Just that he says he told her there was a cover charge and some guy paid in. I don't think he ever heard her talking so couldn't confirm if she was American.

These kind of cases are familiar in that it's nearly always someone who they know who kills them and this looks to be the case this time too. As far as the suspects are concerned they were extremely lucky that the case was sent so far in the wrong the direction so early on. 30 years later without a confession you would think that a conviction is extremely unlikely. Especially if no body is ever found. If they were builders back then they could have easily disappeared a body forever.

I still wouldn't rule out that this case was sabotaged though. I wouldn't have thought that 5 years ago but we know that AGS back then especially were prone to major fxxk ups. You look at how by pure fluke some murders would have gotten away with it. Michael Bambrick being one apart from the diligence of an excellent detective.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584574#Comment_120584574

Continuing Devil’s Advocate. What has that person to lose though? The Gardai would have to prove that this person knowingly misled the investigation. When challenged with evidence they could just say that they were mistaken. If they didn’t specifically steer the Gardai away from a certain individual there may be no crime to prove.

One of these ‘witnesses’ could have chanced it and gotten away with it for decades.

She would have originally met the perpetrator in College or at a work place or in a social setting, eg pub, nightclub or party. When described as “businessmen” that could mean anything from having a small plumbing company to running a major hotel or portfolio of businesses. I guess both brothers are business partners too, maybe continuing a family business started by a parent or grandparent. One possibility having an addiction issue or just very bad temper. It is possible the brothers own a hospitality venue, where she gave her custom.

ittakestwo

She was outgoing and worked in a cafe in Sandymount. How many people work in a cafe. 4 or 5? Everyone knows each other very well..but she gets on a bus in Ranelagh destined for Enniskerry and a person she works with happens to be on that bus but she does not say hello and just goes up stairs. Seems a bit odd unless of course they dont like one another.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584953#Comment_120584953

I'm terrible with names and faces and I often wonder if other people are as bad as me and just don't realise it. The idea of identifying someone I don't know is a strange idea for me. Most people just disappear into the background for me.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120585967#Comment_120585967

If it was in fact Annie then maybe she didn't see the other person. Who knows. The whole thing stinks though.

I seriously can't believe that those statements that were faxed over and handed in were then lost. And nothing said about them for nearly 30 years. And then what? Oh remember those statements we gave you 30 years ago? Did anything come of them?

Just the incompetence would leave you stunned.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120586139#Comment_120586139

They also said they waited nearly a week before they but it to the public of a missing person. So the doorman recollection would have been of a stranger he met briefly a week before and would have met alot of strangers that night as about 90% of patrons that go there are one off nights out rather than locals. How accurate a description can you give of that.

Think of a stranger you passed last weekend in a cafe or shop. Can you really give an accurate description of them today and identify them from a picture. Very sceptical of the Johnny Fox's sighting.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587818#Comment_120587818

This is going to sound a bit coarse but the only way I'd remember a stranger is if they were really weird or really hot. And even then it's unlikely I'd remember details.

DameEdnaEveridge

According to Bailey (detective on case) her flatmates stated she had a fling with a man the Saturday before she disappeared. She expressed regret, it seemed that she was socialising with this man and things got out of hand. This had been going on for a while. It was someone that she knew perhaps through work. She was assaulted by someone but continued to handle the situation. Was it that she had to tolerate this person? Why coukd she not just cut him off. Did she meet him through work? Was he the brother of a friend? Did they have mutual friends? If that man was well connected would there be a cover up? Two successful brothers, one perhaps intense and obsessive, the other helps him cover it up? The man who was questioned regarding his liaison with Annie the Saturday before denied that it had taken place, raising suspicions of Gardaí ( as per Bailey's account ). He was further questioned but admitted he had a girlfriend and didn't want her to learn of his one night stand with Annie. The Gardaí understand. And so when he is given a rock solid alibi for the Friday in question they back off. So, what has changed in the last 2 years? Could the supplier of the alibi have died? Or separated from this man? Why is the alibi no longer rock solid? Annie felt guilty about this liaison, did she know the man's girlfriend? And if the man went on to marry his girlfriend wouldn't she continue to back up his story? Sandymount. Property. Successful family. Sighting of Annie by restaurant owner (Sandymount Green) flagging down bus on Friday afternoon. Very specific. Perhaps he has days mixed up. Witnesses were only questioned one week after her disappearance as investigation was not immediately upgraded to missing persons enquiry. 7 days. A long time. Groceries left on kitchen table, purchased at 11ish, never refrigerated. I don't believe she was ever in Enniskerry that day. Witnesses well-intentioned, in my opinion, but misguided, one of whom is a colleague. Which work place?? Java or Courtyard? Not necessarily born and raised in Sandymount. Successful family. Well connected brothers living in Sandymount in their thirties. You'd be inclined to think they were locals, wouldn't you? And even dismiss a country man, successful businessman born and raised outside the capital. And then you might look at his family, and his connections, wealth. And then bring it all back to Sandymount!

DameEdnaEveridge

The man she slept with the Saturday before denied the liaison when initially quizzed by police. He didn't want his girlfriend to find out. OK! He had a rock solid alibi for the day Annie disappeared. Supplied by same girlfriend whom he doubtless went on to marry? Something happened in last 2 years to that alibi? No longer rock solid. I am thinking 2 brothers, one intense and obsessive, one genuinely interested in Annie but in a relationship. I'm thinking one helped the other cover it up. Don't think both were involved directly in her murder. I'm also thinking the abusive man was soneone she felt she had to handle, rather than avoid completely. Did they have mutual friends or was he perhaps a relative of a friend or employer she didn't want to fall out with. I have no idea!!! So many questions! The only thing I feel I know is that property in Sandymount is very expensive. You'd want to be a good business man to be able to afford somewhere there in your thirties. I'd say from a successful country family. One brother as ambitious as the next. They'd also want the right kind of connections. I have no idea but her friends do. They gave the names to Gardaí. Hopefully, these men will be questioned. Maybe not guilty but need to be questioned.

plasterman

To get to the bottom of the initial investigation failing I'm not sure conspiracy is necessary when we've seen and heard recently from the Gardaí involved at the time. Unimpressive across the board is the mildest way to put it. For example making excuses about missing faxes covers up a huge oversight on their part; would it not have been extremely basic police work for them to pick up the phone to or visit all of Annie McCarrick's closest female friends and relatives to get the inside track on everyone in her life in the days after she went missing? They'd have gotten the same information just as quick and in more detail. Also, the two brothers who have been mentioned did well later in life but seemingly they are from working class or at least relatively humble backgrounds, it doesn't sound like they were part of any elite at that time, presumably similar in age to Annie McCarrick.

Everything we know about the investigation doesn't reflect well on the Gardaí, so the things we don't know about the investigation probably don't reflect well on them either. How do we know if alibis were put to the test? We just heard they were "robust", I don't have any confidence in that.

DameEdnaEveridge

Where were these brothers referred to as working class or of humble origins? I can find no reference to that. Thanks! Good points. Gardaí should have interviewed her friends.

Annie actually worked in the well known Courtyard restaurant, Donnybrook. My aunts used to lunch there every couple of years later. She also worked in Café Java on Leeson Street. Accounts of her working in “a café” in Sandymount, where she was just about to bake for, had laid out ingredients, only to turn around make a solo trip out to rendezvous with some man at Poppie’s café in Enniskerry.

https://www.irishstar.com/news/ireland-news/who-annie-mccarrick-new-documentary-29927664

Not even a mobile phone on her to text new plans. Back then, generally people had to plan movements better, communication was by a house phone, but many in apartments didn’t have ready access to a phone. You often had to call to the door of where a person lived, worked or was expected to be to communicate.

If she had been in Johnny Foxes, how exactly did she get there, say from Enniskerry? It is an isolated venue up windy roads in the hills with an occasional bus service from City direction. A bit far to walk from Stepaside. Were we to believe she arrived alone, then her arrival Must have been either by a very well tuned bus or taxi.

All these alleged movements a d changes of direction are bizarre to me. Did that guy who paid for her entry appear to know her or be with her or just a random stranger who knew the ropes about the cover charge and just wanted to get in so the quickest thing he reckoned was to put his hand in his pocket to pay for her.

Re the brothers, they would seem to be loyal to one another. Was her relationship, as it were, with just one, with the other bro standing by his abusive sibling, or was there some triangle with jealousy being involved but that the brothers still stuck by one another. Was one of the brothers known to drink and lose his temper when drunk and had already assaulted Annie without apparently causing (overt) injury and next time things really went pear shaped and she tragically died, the other brother coming up with a horrible plan to get his brother out of conviction?

Sometimes, indeed quite often, siblings fall out, especially ones where there’s major issues involved. Is it possible the brother who had stood by is starting to get p1ssed off having given an alibi. But then he would stand to be convicted of covering up a murder and that’s why he hasn’t come forward so far. But maybe he is caving in, maybe he has got to the stage where he just wants to clear his conscience and would be prepared to face the consequences. Maybe that’s why the Gardai are making sone progress behind the scenes. Time will tell.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120590022#Comment_120590022

Surely to goodness they did interview her friends, indeed had I been a friend I would have been haunting the Garda station to give as much info as possible, but that’s just me. Some things really really puzzle me about these cases.

plasterman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120590022#Comment_120590022

Iirc it was a comment from a journalist who has followed the case and knows who they are. Can't find the source. They are not very well known afaik.

If the brothers were of socially “lowly” origin and not connected with any sort of elite, then it sounds more like incompetence on the part of the Gardaí than any form of cover-up.

Honorable

One paper said middle class background. I think it was the Mirror.

Also read, maybe in same story, they have since built up successful businesses

Honorable

incompetence is the Gardai middle name. I have spoken to Gardai that do not even know basic road traffic law.

Honorable

It said in the documentary she was assaulted by someone after they had been drinking. Is that "they", the assaulter or "they " both of them.

Honorable

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120589618#Comment_120589618

Where did Bailey say that? I don't recall it from his book

Honorable

There is a story that JoJo is buried on a farm but the farmer won't allow Gardai to search. Some of my relatives know who the alleged farmer is but I cannot see how he could prevent the search. Unless the Gardai don't have enough evidence for a warrant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120590529#Comment_120590529

They mustn’t have enough evidence for a warrant. If I were the farmer and totally innocent I would actually want the Gardai to eliminate me from the picture asap.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120565823#Comment_120565823

I would be very slow to rule him out of any of them. First of all I don`t see how cast iron alibis can be established for him years after the event, secondly, if there was any solid evidence of boyfriends, partners etc being responsible we would have had arrests and thirdly, I think that close family members can (understandably) be overly suspicious of boyfriends/partners. It is a shocking and life altering event to have someone close to you just disappear and you begin to look at people around you in a whole new light.

Murphy is a scumbag. A premeditational predator who was clearly capable of murder to cover his tracks. And he got around.