How Pacifism looks to those abroad

I saw this tweet

https://twitter.com/ozkaterji/status/1554951721679470594?s=21&t=zVQltrks0eqXBqEG1rURwA

And I thought that even if it mentions Britain it applies even more to us in Ireland. We live in safety and security because of geography, size, irrelevance, EU membership, implicit US interest and other peoples militaries. Yet we think we have some superior moral vision, some superior example to lecture others on. Irish pacifism is a naive and juvenile view of reality which undermines our credibility as a neutral country and an EU member.

And especially for the knee jerkers who think this makes me a war monger who should fight in Ukraine: you should move yourself and your family to Ukraine and offer your children to be deported to Russia to be brought up as Russian. Any takers?

C'mon OP, don't be a dicktease.

Outline your plan. How can Ireland be more practical?

One eyed Jack

Yet we think we have some superior moral vision, some superior example to lecture others on.

Well, Oz certainly does anyway.

I wonder what he’d make of Ukrainian and Russian pacifists, or was the tweet just another attempt to appear morally superior to others who don’t share his political beliefs…

Certainly looks like it 😒

HalloweenJack

How exactly does it undermine our credibility as a neutral country?

We pursue a policy of neutrality and pacifism is the perfect tool for that as we don't get involved in wars.

20silkcut

Ukraine was a peaceful country for 30 years of its existence. They chose peace they liked it just like we do. By virtue of their unfortunate geography and geopolitical importance they ended up with war.

Just remember the only reason we live in a peaceful society at this point in time with a remote threat of invasion is because of our favourable geography strategic insignificance and lack of currently belligerent expansionist neighbours. It has nothing to do with any unique pacifist tendencies or clever unique neutrality policy. Long may the sun shine for us and that situation continue.

To have prominent people associated with elected persons in this country wilfully ignore these realities and say that both sides can just choose peace absolutely undermines their credibility when one side clearly has no intention of it.

Prominent people associated with elected persons in a country could well be assumed to be representative of a large body of opinion within that country. I certainly don’t want to be associated with or represented by such clueless naivety.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426469#Comment_119426469

We do get involved in wars. We do so secretly and in a manner that makes it legitimate for a belligerent to point out that we have taken sides and that we can under international law be regarded as a belligerent. (For those who don’t know: Donegal gap etc etc in WW2, use of Shannon, secret Defence agreement with UK).

What pacifism does is it gives a smug moral sheen to grubby self serving freeloading on other countries fighting.

If people are so obsessed with neutrality ( a separate thread) then we must stand on our own two feet and be capable of doing the work currently done by the RAF, the RN and the USN. We don’t do that because pacifism is according to you the “perfect tool” to be neutral whereas all it does is undermine neutrality by leaving us dependent. But of course in the best Irish tradition, smugly superior while being despicably hypocritical.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058257379/how-pacifism-looks-to-those-abroad

Just watching the gameplaying going on over Taiwan at the minute and imagining the arguments here when war/conflict inevitaby breaks out in a few years - 'NATO is a defensive organisation', 'The Chinese struck first' etc etc etc when the reality is much more complex and nuanced and the gameplaying by NATO's most powerful is forgotten, wilfully or otherwise.

We don't want to be involved in that - simple. It's not wholly pacifism, it is an attempt to have some semblance of morals in a world not of our making.

That the powerswap have continually watered down our neutrality is another topic really. I wonder if it was put to a plebiscite what our continued policy should be, how that one would go.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426932#Comment_119426932

Oh get lost with applying your latest "gameplaying" garbage to Taiwan.

How would you like a CCP jackboot stomping on your face? You don't have the faintest.

Members of the Oireachtas and from governing parties have visited Taiwan at the invitation of their government. Are they "gameplaying" too?

You're not a democrat and you have autocract pipe lodged so far up yout rear end you could call it Nordstream 3.

Get a thesaurus by the way. We're all sick of you prattling on about gameplaying and running off like a coward.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058257379/how-pacifism-looks-to-those-abroad

100% agree.

I like this tweet from him.

https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1555118682677837825?s=20&t=19PVcu2YKkkqvSdBiC1DZQ

Plenty of these 'fools' as Oz Katerji states here on boards.ie waffling away.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427072#Comment_119427072

Nothing 'latest' about it.

It's yet another example of it.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426932#Comment_119426932

Oh look, more Conspiracy nonsense....

Here is news to you Francie. Taiwan is not part of NATO... but I guess if or when China invades you will be there licking your lips at the thought of another authoritarian regime suppressing a free country.

You would happily see genocide and death in another country so long as FF/FG or the Brits/Americans get a bloody nose, in fact, you would welcome it.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427072#Comment_119427072

He wants to prattle about with his usual 6 phrases and then complains about being taken to task and shown up for what he actually is.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427094#Comment_119427094

No, quite wrong.

Taiwan is just another tragic pawn in a game, like Ukraine was IMO. Both not being in NATO allows the game to go on without all out war.

I have made clear that Russia as an invader is the worst offender. And I cannot be any clearer about that.

I also never said Taiwan was in NATO, not sure why you are railing about that.

How can it be a 'conspiracy theory' when it is happening right now in front of you?

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427086#Comment_119427086

You don't want Ireland to be invaded but deny the people of Taiwan that right. Just as you deny the people of Ukraine that right. You wish for them to be isolated and prone to coercion and bullying by autocrat neighbors.

Politicians visiting Taiwan be they Irish, Japanese, American or Lithuanian is their fundamental right and there's nothing a damn thing the CCP, the Kremlin or their creepy enablers in the West can do about it.

You're parroting word for word the Beijing line and lads in their Dublin embassy are delighted at the brain-dead among the Irish that parrot like you do.

You've transformed yourself into a Tankie.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427139#Comment_119427139

Jaysus, I'm pro Bejing now.

Ignoring this as you have nothing as a counter argument but invective and bile.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427134#Comment_119427134

What is the 'game' Francie?

Who is behind the 'game'?

Men in black suits with cigars and their black helicopters?

It's a conspiracy theory that there is some organised central group who wants to create war at the behest of some interest. That is your point of view, a point of view you have pushed again and again, with ZERO proof.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427134#Comment_119427134

Taiwan is not a pawn. It is a living breathing democracy with 23 million souls living freely, and the last standing Chinese speaking territory free from the yoke of the CCP that only exists because it has been given the means to do so by the US.

You think in chess pieces. The rest of us see a democracy and know the moral imperative.

Tankie

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427152#Comment_119427152

Yes you are, and you're an utter disgrace to the name of Republicanism.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427153#Comment_119427153

The 'game' is to keep conflict going mark.

And you know how arms companies see conflict...as 'oppurtunities for growth'. I showed you that 'evidence' straight from the horses mouth. I also showed you evidence that these compaines have undue influence on government policy, most notably in those countries engaged in the current game playing over Taiwan.

I'm not sure if 'black suits' are de riguer in the dress code of these companies. I'll have to check.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427154#Comment_119427154

What is it, if not a pawn in the current war games and trials/show of force going on?

What other word would you use?

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427186#Comment_119427186

You say your opposed to war games. Then put the blame on those conducting the war games. There's only one country simulating the blockade of Taiwan and invasion at this very moment. And because a politician (among many from different countries), landed and spoke to the the President of the ROC. God gave you a brain, use it.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427180#Comment_119427180

The 'game' is to keep conflict going mark.

How exactly is behind this. Name names.

And you know how arms companies see conflict...as 'oppurtunities for growth'. 

Did the arms company corral Pelosi into visiting Taiwan?

Did they do the same for Newt Gingrich's visit in 97?

Are the Arms company also controlling the CCP into invading Taiwan?

 I showed you that 'evidence' straight from the horses mouth.

That was not evidence of your grand scheme. You have never given over evidence to your crack pot conspiracy theory.

 I also showed you evidence that these compaines have undue influence on government policy

Such as getting Pelosi to visit Taiwan? Getting the CCP angry? Where is this evidence of yours?

most notably in those countries engaged in the current game players over Taiwan.

Since you mentioned countries, (plural) can you show me evidence that is the case in Taiwan, China, Japan and South Korea?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427197#Comment_119427197

Good call. Note how he doesn't say a bad word about China and their regime or their war games, but has plenty of nonsense to say about Taiwan and the US.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427197#Comment_119427197

Are you sayiong that the US has not simulated a war with China over Taiwan?

They have. China responds playing it's own war game. And on we go.

ohnonotgmail

A democratic country wants to remain free from the outside influence of another country that would take them over if they could and some people think the democratic country should negotiate with the invading country for their freedom. does that sum it up?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427206#Comment_119427206

Name names?

I just did. Look up the names of those arms companies that have 'undue influence' on the major powers.

If you want individual names, research the directors yourself.

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427080#Comment_119427080

his post is misleading , he ignores that the Zelensky regime antagonised Russia. Its' not a commentary on the rights or wrongs of the Russian invasion but his tweet makes it our that Ukraine was just plodding along and Russia invaded "just because".... and this isn't true.

as for the point of the OP , I've no interest in policing the world as per what current thinking believes is correct or not. lets sort our Irelands interests first instead of involving ourselves with other affairs. it's not like we have some deep attachment to ukraine.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427252#Comment_119427252

Name names Francie.

What CEO of what arms company made Pelosi to go Taiwan?

What CEO of what arms company is making the CCP conduct military exercises off the shores of Taiwan?

Surely a man of your high-level intellect can give us at least one of these names? ;)

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427242#Comment_119427242

I am certainly not saying that. Once Russia invaded in 2014 they should have been treated as a pariah state and shunned by us and everyone else.

But we know that didn't happen. As Reginauld Maudling once remarked about Ireland, 'we have an acceptable level of violence'.

Seems there was 'an acceptable level of invasion' to me. Most notable, when we, trotted over to Moscow looking for a favour off them.

Maybe if the current level of sanctions and reaction had been brought to bear then, the full invasion might have been avoided.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427242#Comment_119427242

Apparently it's okay for a more powerful neighbour with imperial ambitions to take over by force another smaller country, and you can still call yourself an Irish Republican....

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427297#Comment_119427297

the irony of that seems to be lost on them