How Pacifism looks to those abroad

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511678#Comment_119511678

Yes, certainly a factor after our very recent dealings with them. Many in the Dáil would have fought and negotiated with them.

Would have been like asking Poland to hook up with Germany after the war.

Funny how mistrust of the British state and their motives seems to be a cyclical thing.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511710#Comment_119511710

Yet, Poland and Germany and France and the UK et al are part of NATO and the EU....

Yet, here we are still holding onto Irish Neutrality as a relic of our historical anti-Britishness.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119512366#Comment_119512366

Yep...all sovereign nations with the freedom to go their own way. More power to them.

NATO thread thataway >>>>>

maninasia

So many lefty 'tankies' in the West.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511710#Comment_119511710

Funny how the post-colonial mentality has persisted in some circles driving their opposition to everything British and showing up their inability to look at the merits of each argument. Neutrality isn't something in and of itself to them, it is just not being aligned with the British. Just look at the way that some posters on here have ended up as effective Putin apologists as a result.

Small-minded anti-British bigotry has made fools out of them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514161#Comment_119514161

I will post this about what post colonial theory is.

“The prefix “post” of “postcolonial theory” has been rigorously debated, but it has never implied that colonialism has ended; indeed, much of postcolonial theory is concerned with the lingering forms of colonial authority after the formal end of Empire. Other forms of postcolonial theory are openly endeavoring to imagine a world aftercolonialism, but one which has yet to come into existence.”

You have used the term to mean that we were a colony but we are not anymore but some people are still motivated by resentment against the coloniser. You are perfectly entitled to come up with your own definition and usage but you are really talking to yourself.

For those interested in exploring the area and the opportunities our reality as a former colony in the 26 counties offers in a multi polar world and a Global Ireland you could start here: “Postcolonial theory takes many different shapes and interventions, but all share a fundamental claim: that the world we inhabit is impossible to understand except in relationship to the history of imperialism and colonial rule.”

And if there is anyone naive enough to believe that the former coloniser has abandoned influence and intelligence operations in the former colony I have several bridges for sale.

PS You can find the source of the above as easily as I did. It involves some typing, avoidance of intellectual laziness and party politicized thinking but does mean having a curiosity about how the world works

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514161#Comment_119514161

Not trusting the British state after the events of achieving independence was a very astute move in my opinion. The multi faceted Dev, played a blinder in that regard and saved a fledgling state. We can debate what if's until the cows come home about what the consequences of joining WW2 officially would have been.

Funny how it has become a cyclical thing. Would you trust the British state currently blanch?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514276#Comment_119514276

Irish neutrality during WW2 was a masterpiece of political deftness but it wasn’t neutrality as anyone else knew it. Donegal Gap, Foynes, return of aircrew, weather reports, freedom for enlistment in British forces (north and south 80,000) and so on.

Britain has a track record of deceit and violent intervention both covert and overt in Ireland. It’s bad faith is well established internationally after the Protocol debacle. Only a fool would hand control of their country and people to London and expect anything except exploitation and betrayal. Looking at you Redmond.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514249#Comment_119514249

The clear obsession on the part of many posters on here to ensure that they are anti-British in everything they post, to the extent that they oppose NATO, opposed EU until recently, excuse Putin, etc. without considering any of those issues on their merits displays how they are trapped by post-colonial thinking.

Someone like me can say that the British Army was wrong on Bloody Sunday, but we should be active in defence of Europe on its merits. On the other hand, the typical post-colonial mentality on display here would say that the British are evil incarnate and we should therefore not join NATO and they are to blame for Russia invading Ukraine. It is quite sad to see how they are prisoners of their past.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514367#Comment_119514367

Anti British does not equate to mistrusting the British state.

Do you currently trust the British State blanch?

Yes or No.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514367#Comment_119514367

You don’t understand the term. Leave that aside: the other side of the anti British are the pro British who are pro colonial.

I agree with you that we need to accept our reality and responsibilities to EU Defence. That needs a real national conversation.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514411#Comment_119514411

Trust is never absolute.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514628#Comment_119514628

Which is why I used the word 'currently'.

Do you currently trust the British State blanch?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514660#Comment_119514660

As I said, trust is never absolute.

There is no person, no organisation and no state that I trust 100%.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514161#Comment_119514161

Its amazing how the Poles can join a military alliance that has Germany in the mix, given the history between those two nations. Yet we have edgelords in Ireland that still go on about 800 years of British oppression and blah blah blah, in a way to take Ireland out of the Western International system in NATO and the EU.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514411#Comment_119514411

Francie, you don't even trust the Irish State....!

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515311#Comment_119515311

The poles receive protection and support from the germans. Why would we join Nato when no country is an immediate threat to us or even have a bilateral agreement with the British when they engage in foolish misadventures like in Iraq and Afghanistan

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515311#Comment_119515311

They define themselves as anti-British and nothing else. They don't seem to understand that it is the utmost in self-confidence to be able to stand up proud and independent, but also aligned with western democracies like Britain. Instead, they sulk low down in esteem, having to align themselves with Putin and Maduro and the likes. Their psychological hang-ups are incredible.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515070#Comment_119515070

Why won't you give a straight answer to a straight question?

Do you currently trust the British State blanch?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515333#Comment_119515333

Correct, I think the state should be held to account and check at all times. It's why, unlike some, I see a good opposition as an essential part of our democracy.

Some resist, vociferously and with no small amount of bitterness, being held to account. See relevant threads on government here.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515311#Comment_119515311

No Mark, I go on about very recent and continuing British state selfish protection of their own interests.

Do you currently trust the British state?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515687#Comment_119515687

Why would I give a straight answer to a question that is not a straight question?

Would I currently trust the British State not to drop a nuclear bomb on Dublin? Absolutely 100%.

Would I currently trust the British State to publicly release all of its files on Gerry Adams? Absolutely 100% not.

That clearly demonstrates that the question is not a straight question. It is a tiresome, tedious, disingenuous debating tactic to pretend that you are asking straight questions.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515352#Comment_119515352

I'm alright Jack is a perfectly acceptable political position on neutrality to hold, at least it isn't mired in crawling anti-British prejudice. However, it holds no moral high ground at all, and is a really bad look for a country that prides itself on internationalism.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515794#Comment_119515794

Well forgive me, but I won't take lectures from somebody trying desperately to get a rise from claiming somebody or even this state is 'anti-British'

You won't answer a simple question. Fair enough.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515890#Comment_119515890

I never claimed this State was "anti-British". If certain posters define themselves in their comments and posts as "anti-British", that is an opinion based on fact.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515907#Comment_119515907

I never claimed this State was "anti-British". 

So when the newly formed state opted for neutrality it was, in part, because they didn't trust the British and not because they were 'anti-British'.

Glad you agree.

I can cope with your taunts about me being anti- British and find them peculiarly juvenile from somebody well able to debate in an adult fashion on other topics.

I know who I am and value greatly my relationship with many many British people, the British heritage here, their arts, engineering genius (a particular fascination of mine) sport, and much more.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515812#Comment_119515812

So you would prefer if we get involved in wars thousands of miles away from ireland to satisfy the ambitions of the States or the UK. You dont think that would make us look bad? We are involved in peacekeeping missions for no political gain for us and put our soldiers at risk. That deserves respect.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510657#Comment_119510657

I agree that the Ukrainians motives are to defend their own homes, family and friends. In terms of what's Europe and what's not Europe, I suppose that's subjective, if I was pushed I'd say all the way to the urals is Europe, which means western Russia is Europe as they've always played a role in European politics and were connected to European monarchy, however it's not really relevant

Except it is relevant. Eastern Europe only became considered part of Europe with the inclusion of Poland and others into the EU. The perception shifted at that point and has had 20-30 years to settle. However, beyond Eastern Europe, there is Russia, and the former Soviet States, the states which were directly part of Imperial Russia, and later Soviet Russia. Ukraine being part of that. It was never considered part of Europe.

Russia was seen as a nation that straddled East and West, but again, was never really accepted as an European power.

It's relevant because of the propaganda unleashed by European nations before the war started to make Ukraine sound European. To alter the perception that people had gained through education and media over the decades. Before the war, there was no interest in making Ukraine European, because they consistently failed the requirements for entry into the EU.. and their own political policies placed them far closer to Russia than to Europe, including how the country was run.

However, there is the concept of self governance and autonomy, that Ukraine or any self identifying cultural group of people are more likely to prosper and should have the right to autonomy and sovereignty if they choose it. That ideology is on the line.

No it's not. The concept of a nation holding it's own independence is not going to expire if Ukraine fails to stop Russia. They'll be occupied, either accept Russian dominance, or fight against it, and likely within a few decades regain their independence. It's too difficult and costly to hold a large population in bondage if they don't want to be, especially if the US or Europe is supplying support to insurgents. The US failed to hold the M.East. There's little chance that Russia would do any better, as they need the population that Ukraine provides to supplement their own failing rates.

So for me that is the ideological difference between totalitarian states and NATO/western democracy.

Ahh yes, because the electorate in democracies have little actual direct influence over government policy, beyond elections, and direct constitutional changes (if they have a constitution). And in many cases, the political leadership is drawn not from the average person, but from those with the wealth/connections to get placed in such positions. And laws, or indirect constitutional changes can happen without any involvement by the electorate. I wouldn't be terribly impressed by western democracy as it exists today. It is a shadow of the original founding of the democratic systems and the higher values that brought it into being. As for totalitarian states, vs western countries the techniques used are different. Europe is extremely regulated, which ends up seriously restricting what people can do. Yes, Western nations are generally better, but the many of the same restrictions exist, or laws which could be used to control the population should the desire arise.

NATO is a military association. It's different from the EU, and shouldn't be considered similar. The importance of the US in NATO overshadows everyone else.. and that impacts on both policy, and the perspective of nations not in NATO in how they view the organisation.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515983#Comment_119515983

What wars thousands of miles away from Ireland have NATO been involved in?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515696#Comment_119515696

So you don't trust the Irish state, why are you asking others to trust other states, including the British state?

Think about your comments because you come across as someone who doesn't have a clue.