IRFU Transgender Women Policy Change

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This discussion was created from comments split from: Womens' rugby Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Larbre34

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2022/0810/1314991-irfu-bans-transgender-women-from-female-contact-rugby/

Good to see the integrity of the Women's game protected and a clear policy being set down so that there will be no uncertainty or grey areas. The worst possible thing that could happen is for any person to be included in the game, only to be disappointed later by a variation or lack of clarity.

Its good too that the IRFU will explore rugby participation for Trans Women through other non-contact outlets under its remit. Rugby is a game for all, but player safety must come first.

Clegg

Sad day for the sport in Ireland when we decide to discriminate against an already marginalised group in society. Much like the RFU ban, there are no winners to this.

Given there was a grand total of 2 people affected, I think a case-by-case basis would have been the better choice for now

Lost Ormond

Real poor decision. following on from what RFU did in England and it affects so few players directly as well.

Larbre34

Its not about win/lose.

Yes, there are very few players affected, but the Union have a responsibility to protect not just the integrity of the game and safety, but also themselves and their financial wellbeing from the potential consequences of litigation, either by an injured party or by a transgender player impacted by the application of a piecemeal or discretionary policy.

Any risk analysis will say that a comprehensive policy now, is better for all in the long run.

Dr. Greenthumb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119455034#Comment_119455034

Women's sport is the winner. There has been great strides in the last 5 years with promoting women's sport and providing opportunities to young girls to get involved and stay involved. Just look at the growth in women's soccer in the last few years. This protects the sport from a participation and welfare aspect as well as commercially as it continues to grow.

It was not a knee jerk reaction, they were forced into making a decision due to the nonsensical movement to allow biological males compete in women's sport and they made the right one based on science and the safety of women within their chosen sports. Any other opinion is just that, an opinion based on feelings rather than science or the welfare of existing athletes.

I have yet to hear any argument from the pro trans in women's sport that's based on anything else but "it's not fair".

Itxa

Looks to me like the IRFU, namely Potts, is playing the percentages here. Sure there is liability either side of this equation but Potts is betting on the minuscule trans community not suing. Understandable in the current environment.

petronius

Good decision IRFU! to protect the integrity of women's sport!

It is essential to promote the game among girls and women so that they are not in contact with non-biological women.

Ouch Chinese Byrne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119455034#Comment_119455034

The IRFU made the right call.

Common sense prevails in that decision imo. Not everyone will agree with it, but most parents of girls playing rugby will.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119455038#Comment_119455038

It's a difficult call but the science is overwhelmingly one sided on this.

For the case by case basis you have to come with a criteria and then monitor it through the athlete's life. The difficulty here is that it's always in the athlete's interest to perform poorly so just accurately measuring their max performance alone becomes a challenge.

Then there's the criteria to monitor. I do think most people will be surprised at the strength and power differences between males and females, it's pretty big. While the transition process does reduce the difference it comes nowhere near equalizing it.

Teferi

Weird. People who have never had an interest in rugby suddenly posting in the rugby forum. Definitely not suspicious at all.

Anyway, case-by-case basis was better. It allowed for nuance on the issue, which is far better than a sweeping policy.

Clegg

I see the TERFs have noticed

Caranica

Wow. Just wow. This thread has been one of the more progressive in the rugby forum, a few posters aside. Today, not so. As evidenced by the new arrivals to the thread.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119455712#Comment_119455712

Absolutely incorrect.

Treating one person differently from another on subjective grounds, without an underpinning policy, actually IS discrimination and just the sort of mess the IRFU are specifically trying to avoid here. The sort of mess which could see them cleaned out in Court cases over unfair procedures.

And its not just two people involved here. Its amazed me how very intelligent people have been referring to that all day since the announcement, as if we're stuck in this moment forever. Its 2 today, it could be 30 or 40 in a year.

And absolutely nobody has mentioned 4,500 female players, above the juvenile age grades, whom this policy is designed to protect and reassure.

Pussyhands

Science prevails.

For those saying a case by case basis would be better....how???? You really think telling a transwoman they can't play but someone else can would be OK? "Mary can play but you can't because you're more like a man than her"

awec

I don't see how case-by-case could possibly work, I think that's an unworkable solution in practical terms. How would you even define the criteria that would make some women eligible and others ineligible?

While this affects a marginalised group in society, I can understand why the decision was made. Essentially, with this decision mens rugby is mixed rugby and womens rugby is for people born female only.

AckwelFoley

The right decision. This is not a case by case basis type of decision. Its not being discriminatory against trans gender people. Because women that transition to men can compete in men's rugby because they have no distinct advantage. All they need to do is sign a form. They're banning men that transition to women having being through puberty which has been scientifically proven to give them an physical advantage.

CatFromHue

Was there ever a case by case policy?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456370#Comment_119456370

Thats a bit of a contradiction in terms.

But I get what you mean. I think its fair to say that this has been prompted by developments in other Sports and then of course by the recent RFU policy announcement.

I can understand the IRFU wanting to get ahead of the situation though and in fairness, they have done.

Caranica

Mods (I think this includes you @awec) any chance of moving this discussion to its own thread rather than derail the women's rugby thread ten days before our tour starts?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456352#Comment_119456352

What I have in mind is if they're playing something like Clontarf J3's socially, then it's not really much of an issue. But if somebody is tearing it up and clearly using their years of testosterone as an advantage looking to play for Ireland, then treat it differently.

I completely understand the IRFU's decision and they've been very measured in their response but given that trans people have a disproportionate amount of suicides, I would have gone for a more nuanced approach for 2 people, for now.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456487#Comment_119456487

The ruling by the irfu isn't to stop two people playing women's rugby. It's to ensure everyone playing women's rugby are not put in harms way.

CatFromHue

It's unpopular to say but there is a reason why the female category exists in sport, it's not just a safety thing.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456460#Comment_119456460

There was a topic thread started after the RFU announcement a few weeks ago, it was closed down.

Caranica

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456670#Comment_119456670

All the more reason to give it its own thread today. It's totally derailing this thread with the Japan tour on the horizon and the 7s RWC just over 4 weeks away

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456745#Comment_119456745

They'll be gone in a few days

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456745#Comment_119456745

The last post on this thread before people started talking about the transwomen issue was 6 days ago?

There's nothing stopping anyone from posting about the Japan tour or the 7s World Cup.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456369#Comment_119456369

Ever think that maybe them Trans Women never wanted to go throught that puberty in the first place and would have been very happy to Transition then but the World was not ready for it yet and they or their familys did not know that they were not alone and could do it. All Trans Women would be very happy to have Transitioned before puberty. It's not their fault they might be stronger than other Women its societies fault for taking so dam long to change.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456844#Comment_119456844

But then there's the matter of transition before puberty, and how understandably parents would want to exercise caution around their child of such a young age undergoing such drastic, irreversible bodily changes, as well as the emotional/psychological fallout. What if they regret it? Which does happen.

Larbre34

https://youtu.be/mIt4K2uwDqs

Have to hand it to OTB, this is a considered and objective piece.

I'd encourage anyone to listen to the end for Ross Tucker's contribution about the science.

In essence, puberty gives a born male a 30-50% strength advantage over his born female counterpart. Testosterone suppression only corrects 7-10 percentage points of that. There really is no getting around that.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456853#Comment_119456853

Yes true.

Well as long as no major surgery's have yet taken place they can always transition back but if surgery's have taken place eg: in the case of Female to male the removal of the Womb/Uterus and overies well then it would be much harder to detransition and on the case of a male to female bottom surgery. These should only really happen once they are adults, they have seen psychologists and consent to it.

Hormones too will make big bodily changes in the case of the male to female that would be breasts, Softer skin, less thick hair growth on the body, less muscle more fat, hips and less dense bones and shrinkage of the testicles and penis that is not so easily reversed and in the case of a female to male it would be denser bones, more muscle less fat, hair growth on the face and body much more than before and no breast development of female fat distribution as it would be less fat more muscle.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456844#Comment_119456844

That's not the IRFUs problem, nor is it the problem for women that these people would be competing against. That's a separate discussion. The IRFU can only legislate for what's in front of them and That's what they've done based on the science. Clearly they have not rushed into it as there were some already competing

Faugheen

The lack of compassion by some fools here never fails to astound me.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457753#Comment_119457753

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119455764#Comment_119455764

This is a serious and sensitive subject. This is also not Twitter. Lazy posts like this won't be tolerated.

This also goes for any post that can be interpreted as transphobic. Anyone calling them men will be infracted or banned.

There will be a low tolerance for nonsense in this thread.

Pudsy33

How is this policy enforceable? Will there be an IRFU genital inspector rocking up at junior rugby games? Will any women who don't look feminine enough be challenged? Its a nonsense decision aiming to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Also the "transwoman can still participate asa ref" line in the IRFU statement is so tone deaf and patronising.

Cork2021

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454875#Comment_119454875

Spot on

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458230#Comment_119458230

I would think it'd be enforced the same way all the other eligibility rules are enforced?

Furze99

Sensible decision imho.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456487#Comment_119456487

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that there's no issue in social rugby.

Players at that level aren't doing any serious S&C, and the average male body is going to be stronger than the average female body. Like, there is a reason that all of the social inter-sex stuff that's organised is non-contact.

I saw this on Twitter from a club in response to the IRFU:

The fact that their camp is non-contact is implicit agreement that there is careful consideration needed as to what level of mixing is appropriate when it comes to full contact rugby, a fact I think has sailed over their head.

Pudsy33

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458335#Comment_119458335

Which is? I've played rugby for almost 15 years and I don't remember ever having any aspect of my eligibility checked. Will they have to introduce checks for the women's game only?

Pudsy33

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458398#Comment_119458398

They aren't set up as a fully fledged contact team yet, this camp being non contact has nothing to do with the potential attendance of trans people at it.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458433#Comment_119458433

What do you think would happen if you rocked up on Saturday morning to try play for one of the underage teams? Or if I turned up and decided I wanted to play for the women's team? Or if some AIL player decided he was going to tog out for the J10s instead?

There are already all sorts of exclusionary rules in sport, this is just another one. I don't think enforcement will be difficult, I think any clubs that have transgender members will be aware of it and the issue will be handled sensitively.

Enforcement of this is certainly a lot more viable than enforcement of a case-by-case approach, IMO.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458474#Comment_119458474

Even if they were a fully-fledged contact team, and they had teams entered in the various leagues, I can guarantee you the chances of such a camp being full contact are zero.

And you are correct, it's not specifically because of transgender people, it's because you cannot safely run a full contact rugby camp without starting to segregate.

I hope their camp is very successful, but they are proving nothing. There is nothing to stop transgender people playing non-contact rugby at any rugby club in the country.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458504#Comment_119458504

There's nothing stopping transgender players playing contact rugby either.

Trans players can play with their biological sex and trans men afaik can play on the men's teams subject to assessment for their own safety.

It's only trans women that cannot play on women's teams.

Teferi

“What if I as a man rocked down to a woman’s session” is an argument that perpetuates the idea that trans women are just “blokes in dresses”. Surely if you have opinions on trans people you would know that transitioning takes years and isn’t something that is entered into lightly.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458550#Comment_119458550

That's fair enough.

The issue is that transitioning doesn't mean you lose all the extra mass and muscle that you accumulated as a biological man, no matter how many years it takes, and you cannot discount that in a contact sport.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456365#Comment_119456365

A case-by-case policy is impossible. What are the criteria going to be? If you get a bit too good then suddenly you are kicked out? If you get a bit less athletic you are let back in? It's more legally dubious as well I suspect.

Teferi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458642#Comment_119458642

And in the case of a trans woman that has taken puberty blockers?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458550#Comment_119458550

That was not the point I was making, and if this is aimed at me I think you're being deliberately reductive of my point.

The question was how could you enforce transgender men being prevented from playing womens rugby, my response was they do it the same way they prevent men playing womens rugby, or the same way they stop men playing underage rugby. I was not insinuating that transgender women are men, or blokes in dresses.