Bifurcation

h0neybadger · 11-08-2022 2:37pm #1

Hi,

I have 2 1tb nvme drives on an ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (non wifi) board.

CPU: core i7 8700

3080 ti

I have 3 more 1tb nvme drives I want to install.

I was looking at picking up one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adapter-Converter-4x32Gbps-Internal-Expansion/dp/B09DKQ5N3K

I've read that you'll need to enable Bifurcation in your bios, but I don't have any options for this.

According to this list:https://www.asus.com/us/support/FAQ/1037507/

my board is mentioned with the following info:

PCIe x16 slot: PCIEX16_2

PCIe bifurcation in PCIe x16 slot

M.2 SSD quantity: 2

Does this mean I can get the card, and add in 2 extra drives, or is that the 2 existing drive slots on the motherboard..

On the chance that I can't use this, can anyone suggest a suitable replacement board that would be suitable?

Spear · 11-08-2022 2:49pm

I have one of the listed boards, the Asus X299 Deluxe, and off the top of my head, it doesn't list bifurcation in the BIOS, but it calls it Hyper M.2 card support or something similar.

Jon Doe · 15-08-2022 2:44am

Maybe you need to have this installed before that option lights up in the bios?

https://geizhals.eu/asus-hyper-m-2-x16-gen-4-card-90mc08a0-m0eay0-a2267859.html

Cuddlesworth · 15-08-2022 12:25pm

The First x16 slot goes to x8 mode, when the second x16 slot is populated(also now x8 mode). In the page you listed it says 2 drives supported, which makes sense.

This will be gimping your graphics card, which will saturate x8 lanes of bandwidth.

There are also a bunch of caveats with populating other slots, like Sata performance dropping. This is because Intel limits express lanes on desktop processers to really just 20, 16 to the board slots and 4 to the chipset.

With demands like that, your really looking at HEDT products like threadripper/Intels core x, but to be honest they are kinda dead platforms. Neither company is really bothered. At that points its probably cheaper to sell the current drives and buy larger capacity drives to replace.

Or Sata, no idea what your doing but large Sata drives are fine. 99% of people wouldn't notice the difference.

Jon Doe · 16-08-2022 5:35pm

There are also a bunch of caveats with populating other slots, like Sata performance dropping. This is because Intel limits express lanes on desktop processers to really just 20, 16 to the board slots and 4 to the chipset.

No. Intel only needs 20 lanes because that's meant for Graphics (16x) and NVME (4x). Unlike AMD, Intel CPUs connect to the Chipset thu DMI, not PCIExpress. Here's the latest table I could find:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_chipsets#LGA_1700

This will be gimping your graphics card, which will saturate x8 lanes of bandwidth.

What's the consequence? The game's level will take a few extra seconds to load? Once it's all in the card's memory... :P

With demands like that, your really looking at HEDT products like threadripper/Intels core x, but to be honest they are kinda dead platforms.

If you think the need for 3x NVMEs justifies the acquisition of a HEDT or that threadripper/Intels core 9 are 'dead' you are waaaay out of the loop...

Cuddlesworth · 16-08-2022 9:21pm

Fine, they use DMI. His CPU generation only had 16 lanes in total + DMI. Its only 11th gen onwards with 20.

5% performance drop for the 3080, probably more for the 3080ti since its faster, x8 3.0 lanes are similar to x16 2.0 in terms of bandwidth. Games on high res screens are constantly swapping textures in and out. Its gimping the part thats probably 50% of the cost of the system.

"I have 2 1tb nvme drives on an ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (non wifi) board."

"I have 3 more 1tb nvme drives I want to install."

2 + 3 = ?

Intel basically pulled out of HEDT due to a lack of competition, they last released a product in that Market in 2019.

AMD only just released Zen 3 products into their HEDT lineup, its tech that is 1-2 months away from being last gen with the release of the Zen4 server and desktop parts. That and the last release focused entirely on the prebuilt market from mainline "workstation" vendors like Lenovo, with other vendors like Puget basically admitting they can't get the chips for customers. Its a completely dead market for self builds and for good reason, very few people need or require it any more with mainline desktop parts meeting or exceeding most requirements.

So the question is, does OP need 5 NVME drives or did he just buy them. And would he be better off getting Sata SSD's instead, which is a more useable solution in his system.

Jon Doe · 16-08-2022 10:25pm

5% performance drop for the 3080, probably more for the 3080ti since its faster

That doesn't sound so bad... I wouldn't mind running at 45f/s instead of 50 if that meant I get to have 5 NVMEs! xD

Games on high res screens are constantly swapping textures in and out

I'm no expert on this matter but I'm under the impression the PCIex bus is mostly used while the levels are loading. Once the scenario is fully loaded into GPU ram the game starts and the whole thing just runs from RAM. The GPU has real time constraints so it really can't afford to wait for any kind of IO - or so I think...

2 + 3 = ?

5 equals 4 on the asus-hyper-m-2 linked to CPU via PCIex plus 1 on the motherboard link to CPU via DMI.

AMD only just released Zen 3 products into their HEDT lineup, its tech that is 1-2 months away from being last gen with the release of the Zen4 server and desktop parts.

If you *need* a system with 32+ cores you really don't mind if it's last generation...

That and the last release focused entirely on the prebuilt market from mainline "workstation" vendors like Lenovo, with other vendors like Puget basically admitting they can't get the chips for customers.

Maybe Lenovo offered AMD a better deal then Puget? There are only so many of these CPUs to go around... :/

Its a completely dead market for self builds and for good reason,

Oh you mean self build... ok, yeah don't expect to see these beasts on retail channels any time soon, especially the high end parts... :P

very few people need or require it any more with mainline desktop parts meeting or exceeding most requirements.

Yeah, mostly corporate work. That's the top tier goes as high as 10k€...

So the question is, does OP need 5 NVME drives or did he just buy them.

The OP states that s/he has.

And would he be better off getting Sata SSD's instead, which is a more useable solution in his system.

xDD That really depends on one's wallet... if one can afford the asus-hyper-m-2 and doesn't mind the 5% hit... 🙄

Cuddlesworth · 17-08-2022 10:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119483131#Comment_119483131

That card would only have 8 lanes, meaning 2 additional drives. It also costs money to purchase.

If it was me, I would admit I was engineering a solution to a problem I created, rather then avoiding the problem itself.

K.O.Kiki · 19-08-2022 1:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475545#Comment_119475545

If OP is using 5x 1Tb drives I'm assuming they're going for a RAID array, possibly RAID6 (fault tolerance: 2 drives).

Cuddlesworth · 19-08-2022 5:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493570#Comment_119493570

From his comment history, it was clearly a gaming pc so I'm not sure why you would bother. Also Pci-ex raid with 6 drives needs a lot of cpu resources to run.

h0neybadger · 22-08-2022 11:37am

Hey all, thanks for the comments!

Let me give some more clarification! :)

Currently, Windows sits on a 500GB m.2. in one of the mobo slots. 2 partitions. 1 for Windows, 1 for programs. 250 x 2 split.

I have a 1tb for games in the other.

The PC has 3 main functions.

Gaming
Chia
Work

Gaming: I wouldn't mind taking a 5% hit on GPU performance, games I play are not that taxing on the GPU.

Chia: I have 60 external HDD's connected to 2 Raspberry Pi's, and the PC acts as a host for Chia. I also have 2 USB and 4 SATA drives connected to the PC. So 4/6 of the SATA ports are used for that purpose. I would like to keep the other 2 vacant, incase any more of the External enclosures breaks. (as 4 have already). So I will shuck the drives, and connect them to the PC.

Work: I also do a lot of work on the PC, and require a lot of VM's and fast storage. So my company sent me 3 x 1tb nvme's, and provided an allowance for any hardware I need to get. up to €250.

Options: I can replace the motherboard if needed, to something that would be better.

My CPU has an AIO watercooler, GPU is on fans. The PC is in a cool enough area, with good airflow, so temperatures are pretty low. I do however have a concern for putting that expansion card in, as it would be very close to the GPU fans, and could potentially cause temp issues.

Perhaps a new case also, where I could side mount the GPU to take it away from being restricted airflow?

Question: Is there an easy solution here? Could I buy that 4 port m.2 card, get some m.2 heatsinks, get a different motherboard that can support all of this, and throw it in? Or will I need more hardware to make it work?

Spear · 22-08-2022 9:52pm

From what I can find that 4 slot card needs bifurcation, and your board doesn't have it.

If you have enough slots free, you could just put each on a single adapter card. It's not exactly elegant, but it would work.

You've no u.2 port on that board, which would give more options.

Cuddlesworth · 23-08-2022 3:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507909#Comment_119507909

He doesn't have the lanes man.......

If you put the NVME expansion card into your system, you should be able add another 2 NVME drives. It probably will create a airflow problem for the 3080 and it will gimp it slightly on bandwidth itself.

You won't be able to get yourself out of it with a mobo replacement, its a cpu generation limitation. There are mobos out that can do it without a adapter, but its intel 10th gen cpus and above. And they are pricy themselves.

Spear · 24-08-2022 9:24am

Good point, I hadn't considered the lack of lanes. This just isn't going to work is it, not without converting them into other connection formats or external enclosures that would potentially hamper performance.

h0neybadger · 24-08-2022 9:39pm

I'll start saving for a new mobo and CPU combo. maybe Christmas will be a good time.

Spear · 24-08-2022 10:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119517461#Comment_119517461

Ryzen 7000 and Intel 13th gen will be out by then. Decent boards for both should have larger amounts of m.2 slots, and increased lane counts. 5 slots is common on many:

https://www.asus.com/microsite/motherboard/AMD-AM5-X670-B650/

Jon Doe · 06-09-2022 7:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119513905#Comment_119513905

The lack of lanes is only a bottleneck if the OP needs to read/write to a considerable number of drives at the same time...@h0neybadger which of of the 2 saturates your IO the most? Chia or work? If you're hitting hard each SSD individually PCIEx x8 will not saturate. If you need to do some intensive IO on multiple SSDs simultaneously then PCIEx x8 may become a bottleneck.

Jon Doe · 06-09-2022 7:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119517461#Comment_119517461

I'd say that next Black Friday will be the right time to buy a high end AM4 board with plenty of IO for a very low price...

Cuddlesworth · 07-09-2022 10:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119581171#Comment_119581171

That's not how it works. You don't take a x8 slot and throw 4 drives onto it. You would need another chipset to switch traffic, which if it exists will be prohibitively expensive because its cheaper to just upgrade to a Xeon/EYPC system.

platinums · 28-09-2022 9:54pm

even the AM5 boards that I've found dont support dual 16x eg X670E PG Lightning

(- 2 x PCIe 5.0 x16 Slots (PCIE1 and PCIE2), support x16 or x8 / x8 modes*)

I was looking at getting ASUS Hyper M.2 x16 Gen 4 to add a few more ssd's, i wonder has anyone ever done any testes on these things at PCIE x8 speeds

Spear · 29-09-2022 9:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119678141#Comment_119678141

I have an Asus x570 AM4 board, and despite being the older gen, it does have bifurcation. I've not tested it in anyway, I've no use for it myself.

Cuddlesworth · 29-09-2022 9:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119678141#Comment_119678141

You get two cards working on the Hyper M.2 in x8 mode at Gen4 speeds.

Its 4 lanes direct to each card, not 8 lanes shared. Bifurication splits the lanes, it doesn't share them.

x16 /4 = 4 cards

X8 / 4 = 2 cards

x4 / 4 = 1 card

Hop onto newegg, the US site. Go to AM5 and one of the filters is number of m.2 slots. You can filter by board and then hunt down those boards in EMEA.

X670 should have a lot of options for a large number of m.2 drives with the dual chipsets.