Democracy being slowly dismantled in America and the UK

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470410#Comment_119470410

Posters on boards are far too obsessed with Trump as if he's some kind of antichrist.

He acted within the conventions of the US political system (little different from Bush Jnr), and while that behaviour wouldn't be considered acceptable in Europe, he did represent a rather large percentage of the American population. The population that other political factions tend to pretend doesn't exist. Naturally the opposition Trump faced within the democracy after being elected was/is completely justified, rather than accusing them of not being democratic. After all, Trump was elected in, and then his opposition upped their game to block anything he suggested doing.

I couldn't care less about Trump. He's simply a symptom of how US culture has evolved. He's a symbol of the extreme attitudes that exist within the US, but those attitudes haven't disappeared, so they'll have another Trump or someone similar again soon.

Trump remains a great way to distract people away from the deep-rooted problems within American society/culture... and their political arm.

Just because someone wins an election by fooling the people does not mean democracy. Democracy is more than elections and is about holding regimes to account. Afterall Hitler won an election fair and square in the early 1930s

Is it? When have such regimes been held to account? The US has never really been condemned for their actions, internally or externally. Can't recall anything similar for any western nation TBH. We talk loud about how wonderful democracy is, but the reality is that most of what we believe democracy to be, doesn't exist within reality.

As for Hitler, he used various groups to strike fear into any opposition, including the imprisonment of those against his views. Yup. In the 1930s. Helped to have the biggest and best armed militant force in the country, being stronger than both the police, and the German army. This is just more cherrypicking to suit a viewpoint.

Trump won the US elections.. and gained power within the normal American democratic system. No different from anyone before him. Voting manipulation (but coached in nicer terms) has been going on before Trump ran for office... and while in office he was bound by the rules of the US governance, and used the systems put in place by other politicians before him. He was just less subtle about it.

I don't like the man, what he represents, or how he goes about it... however, let's not be in such a rush to elevate other US political figures to sainthood. The whole structure of US democracy and governance is rotten to the core. It's a stacked deck, and favours the corrupt. And that's with or without Trump being involved.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469909#Comment_119469909

For it to be dismantled the electoral systems in both countries would require change and certainly at federal level in the US and national level in the UK, there have been no major changes in the past 10 years that I can recall about how elections are conducted.

So dismantled, no. There is a strong argument that it was always flawed however and these flaws are being exposed now.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058258708/democracy-being-slowly-dismantled-in-america-and-the-uk

The problem is that the conservative voter has lost his or her political home.

The Republicans in the US don't stand for democracy and a free market anymore, especially under Trump they show tendencies of isolationist ideals and insults towards others along with insults towards NATO and blaming all the immigrants for their own domestic failures.

Same goes for the Conservatives in the UK albeit it's a bit different there. Due to Brexit, their attitude is no longer the the open and free market, their politics is focused on isolationist ideals as well but also on self harm, even putting the union between England and Scotland at risk. Also they like to blame immigrants for their own domestic failures, Polish and former Eastern European EU especially.

It would get increasingly difficult for somebody who believes in a free market and a free economy and preserving a status quo to vote for any of these parties.

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470700#Comment_119470700

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470584#Comment_119470584

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470166#Comment_119470166

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470112#Comment_119470112

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469884#Comment_119469884

Trolling throughout the thread

Threadbanned

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470732#Comment_119470732

Why don’t you actually address the point I made?

”Stop posting rubbish. It’s not even half believable at this stage.” - this was my first comment on the issue. Why the childish attack.

There is no equivalence between revealing the names of FBI agents and attempting to release their addresses and posting the locations of SCOTUS judges who are public figures.

Making FBI agents public figures endangers their lives and makes the USA less safe.

Posting a judges location ruins their dinner out.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470805#Comment_119470805

What lies did I post?

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469881#Comment_119469881

Yep. The UK courts said that the leave campaign violated the rules so badly that the vote would have had to be re-run. The only reason it wasn't was because it was only an 'advisory' referendum

zidac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469827#Comment_119469827

The person with the most votes wins. That's the essence of democracy.

Most Governments are led by business. Here we have multi-national corporations and development groups, alot of the same people that were prominent celtic tiger people are back where they were before bail-out. Its just the way democracy works.

duploelabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470835#Comment_119470835

Apparently @BruteStock has documented proof that crt is being taught in schools too, but can't provide said proof. So I wouldn't expect a response of any value

skimpydoo

Why the sudden change of heart?

Count Dracula

I think the concept of a failed US democracy goes a lot deeper than Donald Trump - who astonishingly still manages to captivate his dissenters. People are obsessed with knocking him, even after his presidency is over.

Look back as far as the the assassination of JFK and you can see the lengths that the US hawks will go to enable their power. They make so much money from arms production and the oil industry that they simply will stop at nothing to ensure that they have a President who is capable of keeping their industries liquid and in demand. Robert Kennedy was nailed down to continue his brother's liberalist agenda and saw a similar faith.

The comedian George Carlin summed up democracy, it gives voters the appearance of having a choice.

I don't think the UK is all that different, insofar as its' first past the post system of filling Westminster fails miserably in allowing a minority voice within the UK. That is the way they like it.

It makes me laugh when I see how it inhibits any form of the dismantling of the United Kingdom. Scottish independence is so futile and almost impossible to achieve. Anyone who understands the UK constitution will understand this. The SNP can never get themselves into UK government unless they form a coalition with the Tories. Look it up.

If you don't have democracy in the workplace, you don't have democracy.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470724#Comment_119470724

Yeah. A lot of people still think he's great despite all the facts to the contrary.

Truly deranged.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119472960#Comment_119472960

Yep the sh1t for brains brigade.

Same crowd have a habit for believing all sorts of grifters like Alex Jones etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473048#Comment_119473048

I'll end up dying from laughter more likely.

I don't go around believing that someone who lies to their supporters resulting in two of them being killed just this week alone is anyone worthy of respect, defending or praise

lumphammer2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470840#Comment_119470840

I agree with everything you say. Trump is a symptom of the flaws of what goes on in America and the world in general. Democracy to be frank does not really exist. Hitler, Trump, others are the same and are using their environments to create their agendas. Trump is not competent enough to be a true dictator but he is still a disruptive and bad force.

duploelabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473492#Comment_119473492

You called them that

duploelabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473533#Comment_119473533

You parroted it. You could've used a different adjective, but that was your choice

dublin49

Trump and Boris are the biggest threat to Democracy ever because although there has always been corruption within Democratic states ,there was a general acceptance of what the rules of the game were.Trump has blown that acceptance to sunder and Boris is not far behind.So a deluded conman like Trump can and does just ignore the conventions,rules ,modes operandi of the democratic system so it is now practically worthless.

duploelabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473577#Comment_119473577

Framed? So you dispute the evidence used to secure the search?

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473577#Comment_119473577

He won't be able to run again.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473619#Comment_119473619

Nope he got caught out lying again saying that he had handed everything back.

So he's spinning more lies about it since the warrant was executed that have ended up causing the death of two of his supporters this week.

Any opinions on his lies causing this to happen?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473619#Comment_119473619

That’s the intent behind the laws for the crimes he is demonstrated committing.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473619#Comment_119473619

He claimed that during the raid some of the files they found was planted. He and his legal time watched the search via CCTV and did not mention this at the time of the raid.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473577#Comment_119473577

Got any proof of framing? Cause so far this sounds like you're adopting a conspiracy theory.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473350#Comment_119473350

Actually, I would view Trump as a positive force... because it required people to recognise many of the flaws within American culture. This insane desire to embrace the extremes that is so present at many levels within US culture/society, whether it's the dishonesty of the media, or the infighting within political camps. He also served to push many of the "forgotten" issues such as homelessness, illiteracy, corruption, etc into the limelight. Partially, because he was corrupt himself, but that's nothing new. Clinton, Bush Jnr/Snr, etc were all corrupt in one way or another.. it was simply a behaviour that has mostly been ignored about American politics. This embrace of their own propaganda.. sweet smelling farts, and all.

The thing about Trump is that he represents everything about the extremes of American culture. The elitism of the wealthy. The power of big business. The gung-ho militant culture. The lies, misinformation, and underhand tactics.. and he forced his opponents into the open. Forced them to reveal their own underhand tactics into the open for the world to see.

As for democracy not existing... like most ideas, it's great in theory but is remarkably vulnerable to change. Democracy only ever really exists at the beginning of a democratic nation, but within a few years at most, politicians and the legal profession will seek to circumvent the restrictions on their influence, especially when it applies to those with privileges based along birth, wealth (generational wealth usually), etc. The US democratic system, and it's notion of equality never really bore up to honest and balanced examination. It was simply the best at the time of it's creation, but has gone downhill over the last two centuries. No different from any other democracy TBH. We've seen the same within British democracy, and even Irish democracy, although with Ireland the shorter span of time means the changes are less obvious.

Trump isn't any kind of dictator. The closest, in modern times, that the US has gotten to a dictatorship would have been with Bush, after Sept 11, with the Homeland security bills, and the expansion of domestic surveillance. Trump never came close to any of that, and could (and was) blocked by his opponents. Bush, on the other hand, used a terrible tragedy to expand the powers of the Federal state, and those of the intelligence services (which Obama further strengthened).

The part I find interesting about Trump is that if his opponents (both online and in the US) stopped talking/complaining about him, he'd simply disappear into the background as a spent force. Some minor support would remain, but it would dissipate rather quickly. Instead, people rant about him, constantly bringing him back into the limelight, encouraging his supporters that he remains relevant. And since nobody is really trying to resolve the issues that brought him into power, his supporters remain convinced he's their best hope for a return to sanity (their version of sanity which is still an extreme by our standards).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473773#Comment_119473773

But this is the reality, it's the same group claiming framed that claimed the election was rigged. No proof of either but will still parrot claim.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473546#Comment_119473546

I'd disagree. The manipulation of the electorate has been happening for decades.. long before either Trump or Boris came along to power. You shrug off the institutional corruption within politics and governance far too easily... that's the death of democracy right there. Just as you embrace the "rules of the game" too easily. A game. The running of a nation.. and that's also why democracy is in serious trouble in most countries, because four years in office doesn't provide much scope to address the mistakes of previous administrations, nor is there much in the way of personal responsibility for politicians for the choices/decisions they make while in office. It's a game without any real risk for them. They're not beholden to the people. They're only concerned with their reputation among their peers, which the electorate definitely aren't.

As I said above, Trump was great because he forced all this BS into the open, either by his own behaviour, or by the behaviour of his opponents. That's a positive change. Alas, I doubt too many people really care to examine that dumpster of shite, to seek a better way of politics and governance, which is why democracy will continue to decline as a system to represent the electorate.

Sweetemotion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473770#Comment_119473770

Scrotes and people with mental health issues?

Stay classy DubInMeath.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473834#Comment_119473834

What would you call someone who is calling for people who are a different race, religion, gender or sexual orientation to be harmed?

What would you call someone who claims to have created their own county here in Ireland and is its king and is writing to the locals and various government departments demanding official recognition and taxes?