Irish Times looking for Landlords to have their say

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480060#Comment_119480060

I agree.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119478673#Comment_119478673

I got a lot of incoherent pushback on another thread where I crticised the IT for dropping its comments section. If the IT had curated those comments like the British media (the FT is the best example), they would have had a ready-made set of landlords' tales.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058247654/irish-times-website-no-longer-allowing-comments

More generally, comments would give the IT a clear picture of what their subscribers think about their editorial line which always favours more regulation and higher taxes (was that the real reason they blocked the comments?). This goes to your second point - if there was a functioning rental market, a notice to quit would not be a crisis i.e. a suitable alternative would be available to a good tenant at a similar rent. Did any pundit make this elementary point in the recent flood of media commentary?

Don't confuse this with a separate point that rents are too damned high. I agree, but that's largely a function of interest rates and QE, plus the Government taking half the rent. Would it change anything if small landlords took only half the rent but asked the tenant to write a a cheque to Revenue for the other half? The economics would be the same but the politics might be dramatically different.

Flinty997

The govt will continue to do nothing and this crisis will go on forever.

If people don't care there isn't enough landlords they also don't care there aren't enough rentals. There are different sides of the same coin.

Even with social and public housing the govt is a landlord. That landlord leaving partly caused this crisis. Because there was nothing to fill that capacity gap. The private rental isn't going to ever fill it. Because it runs at a loss. Even with govt propping it up the return on investment is far lower than the high end of the market. Which is why the investment and REITs primarily focus on the top end of the market.

Tbh the rental market has got exactly what it asked for. More protections for tenants only, less small landlords, large investment landlords. The govt has responded to that and delivered it.

Seth Brundle

Do you feel entitled to that "crust" because you just feel special and exceptional, or do you think that steps 1-3 need a unique skillset that only you can provide?

To be fair, the same question could be put to taxi drivers and various other jobs. Do you consider that taxi drivers only have a car because it was paid for by those who used the service? Should taxi drivers be entitled to a "crust" or "profit" after paying income tax and loan repayments?

You are conveniently ignoring that any property needs to be maintained. If it is not maintained then one could safely assume that any sale price would be affected.

(For the record, I'm not a landlord)

Seth Brundle

The govt will continue to do nothing and this crisis will go on forever.

To be fair, the government is not doing nothing. They continue to make various reactionary changes in law which provide more rights to tenants. This shift in the balance has made it less desirable for an individual to become or stay as a landlord.

DubCount

Not again. Not another thread that goes down the same well walked path.

"If your property is damaged, that just a risk of being in business"

"You cant increase rents, its a social responsibility not a business"

"Lets do without landlords altogether - have the government buy up all the property and give it to the poor - the rich people can pay for it".

"Lets stop landlords leaving the market altogether"

"The market economy doesnt work - we need a new way of doing things (no new way ever suggested)"

Landlords are leaving because the current framework is unfair and unworkable. It is no great loss for the landlords, they just invest their money elsewhere. Its tenants and want-to-be tenants that suffer. The system is broken and nobody is going to fix it. The great landlord exodus will continue and if you want to believe SF and co will make it all better - go for it. However, if you want a new way of doing things, at least let it be consistent and be honest about where the magic money tree comes from.

Flinty997

The landlords having their say just haven't realized no one wants them investing in the rental market. They should invest in some thing else. Leave the rental market to fund itself. How they do that will be interesting to see.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480247#Comment_119480247

Do nothing to fix the problem. They are just chasing votes by knee jerk reactions to populist pressure. They continue to court investment to drive the economy.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480120#Comment_119480120

Um what?

Selling any service, maintaining any product, risking your own capital, doing legal work, tax work, supporting the customer, running a business. Nothing special or unique about it, it's the same as any other business.

Wasn't it that renting out property was a business and it only failed when not treated as such. Or is it not that again? I can't keep up with the circles people go in around here to try to justify that this service is somehow different to everything else on earth and should be done for free or at a loss.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480232#Comment_119480232

Well one thing that you might want to consider the likely difference in value in 2042 between 10 taxi cars bought for 30k each today, and one house bought as a passive investment for 300k today.

"Investing" in property the way most on here appear to do it is a passive, wholly rent-seeking, activity.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480254#Comment_119480254

Rental market would fund itself without property owners willing to let the units out for rent? How would that work exactly, I'm intrigued.

This is like saying all butchers should leave the market and the meat will just appear on your plate.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480448#Comment_119480448

A passive investment has zero tenants.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480445#Comment_119480445

If you are struggling to change a few lightbulbs here and there, then maybe it might not be the best "business" for you to be in.

I, like most people, have some family members who were accidental landlords. None of them appear to struggle to anything like the extent that you appear to be struggling to cope. They just have houses and apartments with long term tenants who take care of the place themselves and pay them their rent. I don't think they describe it as "doing legal work". Are you qualified to "do legal work?"

downtheroad

The Irish Times pice shows that there are a lot of landlords in the market moaning about the tax they pay and haven't a clue what they're talking about. Rates of 51%, 52% and 53% all mentioned and then 1 genius who said his RTB fee is not an allowable expense when it most definitely is.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480448#Comment_119480448

No.

You can buy an investment property and not rent it. You might even buy property simply to enjoy it..

Indeed that's the fuss about vacant properties.

Someone's ability to own property isn't the cause of the govt failure to provide housing. But it's a good distraction to take the attention of the govt failures.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480466#Comment_119480466

Well a general principle in a free market would be that if you are relatively inefficient at a particular task, then you cannot demand the market compensate you for your inefficiency.

For example, if it somehow takes you 40 hours a week to "manage" having one house with a tenant, you cannot demand a full time wage from that if most people can do it with 10 hours effort a year.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480461#Comment_119480461

My comment was meant to be sarcastic and ironic.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480480#Comment_119480480

Ah, you are confused over the term "rent-seeking".

Tonesjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480120#Comment_119480120

Wow. I didn't know it was that easy.

I'm off to the bank for some cash. Il get enough to buy a house in every county.

I don't think that's how it works Donald

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480448#Comment_119480448

Well one thing that you might want to consider the likely difference in value in 2042 between 10 taxi cars bought for 30k each today, and one house bought as a passive investment for 300k today.

Are you saying that the value of property can never go down?

Can a taxi driver allow for depreciation in his returns? When a taxi driver sells their car, is CGT applied?

Either way, it doesn't matter as your original point was that a landlord should not feel entitled to some form of annual return on their investment which is nonsense.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480632#Comment_119480632

Are you saying that the value of property can never go down?

Hmm. Strange that you came to the conclusion I was saying that. Perhaps try reading it again.

Can a taxi driver allow for depreciation in his returns? When a taxi driver sells their car, is CGT applied?

Actually, when the taxi driver sells their car, if they have already depreciated it fully, they will pay income tax on the money from the sale of the car. Even if not depreciated fully, they will pay income tax on the amount above the book value.

Either way, it doesn't matter as your original point was that a landlord should not feel entitled to some form of annual return on their investment which is nonsense.

See point 1 above. That is yet another strange conclusion that you imagined. I think that perhaps some of your anger on the topic stems from not reading things correctly and rushing to some irrelevant conclusion.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480615#Comment_119480615

Which bit do you not understand? The bit about getting a loan? Or the bit about filling out the forms for the loan, or the bit about bidding on and buying a house?

growleaves

@Donald Trump 'I think that perhaps some of your anger on the topic stems from not reading things correctly and rushing to some irrelevant conclusion.'

I see no evidence of anger on that poster's part, he is just making points the same as you.

Are you angry at rentiers for taking 20-40% of your monthly wage for relatively little labour and retaining ownership of your living space?

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479619#Comment_119479619

the quote in question was 'after paying the mortgage, management fee, agent's fee, insurance, repairs, RTB and tax on my rental income, i am left with €1,200 per year profit'.

they are not 'earning' that money, if they are paying an agent and management company to manage the property. they are expecting the property to be a free money tree.

also, as mentioned, a large part of the economic benefit of them is that once the mortgage is paid off (by the tenant!) it's them who will own the property. they're making a profit from the rent and gaining outright ownership on the property in the process. to fail to mention the second part in the 'woe is me' report is disingenuous at best.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480681#Comment_119480681

I might be if I rented. But I don't.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480471#Comment_119480471

Lucky for them. Hopefully they will always have decent tenants.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480689#Comment_119480689

And also, to reiterate, they have the purchase value of the house tax free if/when they release it.

Basically getting a ballon payment for sitting on their holes for 20 years while someone else paid off their loans and only gave them 1200 a year "profit" in the meantime. the poor divils

dashoonage

I do love the attitude that every small landlord just rocked into the bank collected their cash and rocked on and made huge profits with zero risk or effort on their behalf.

I'd love some of ye to have a crack at it and see how ye get on.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480699#Comment_119480699

I get the impression that they renting below market rents to the extent that the respective tenants don't want to cause any hassle or lose their set-up. All are renting over 10 years to the same tenants. Properties are due to marriages and moving into spouse's house around the time of the crash and they would have been in negative equity at that time. I think one had to replace a washing machine a few years back. Obviously there might be more things but that is the only one I heard mentioned.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480726#Comment_119480726

They've been lucky with their tenants. A deal on the rent doesn't guarantee good behaviour and co-operation.