Irish Times looking for Landlords to have their say

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119484071#Comment_119484071

Ownership does not change but possession changes when you allow them to rent your house

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119483348#Comment_119483348

What are the appropriate channels for doing 20k of damage to a property? I've never seen any case of a tenant being held to account for damage done.

Here's what happened with my most recent tenants. They broke and ignored a tap spraying water out of a kitchen sink for weeks. The water damage wrecked the kitchen, the flooring and the wall behind it. They didn't like the crumbling kitchen or the smell of the rot. The damage would take months to repair, because of builders and material availability. They moved out (thank f). Insurance does not cover tenant neglect.

However, there are a very small number of scenarios where you are not held to previous rent level in RPZs.

• Putting in an extension (not possible in an apt).
• Changing the BER (not possible with an already high BER)
• leaving the property vacant for 2 years (which I have considered as in some cases it makes financial sense)
• moving an internal wall. As the internal wall had to come down anyway due to the damage, I moved it and there are now tenants in situ at a rent rate more than double the previous rent. The same rate as the majority of units in the building.

Under the current regs, I would be a complete fool to charge below the market rate when the opportunity arises. That's another example of how the system is broken. Back in the old days, I would set rent reductions after the first year, if the tenant caused no damage and didn't need chasing for rent. I have no incentive to reward good tenants with lower rent without screwing myself over for future tenants.

A fair and free market is where the supplier can make an income and pay their suppliers, and the customer gets the service or product at a reasonable price. That is a mutually beneficial functional market. In a market that imposes penalties on the suppliers only, and doesn't hold delinquent customers to account, that market breaks down and you get what we have now.

This is the system that populism built. Upward only rent reviews, encouraging landlords to shoot up rents to the maximum when they can, and shortages. Hope you're happy with it kids.

Donald Trump

...

I'm off!

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119483649#Comment_119483649

Most tenants are fine.

I do have sympathy for landlords when scummy tenants won't move out though.

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119483984#Comment_119483984

As I said I’m not a landlord and don’t rent any more so have absolutely no skin in the game here.

But you’re putting up examples of changes of ownership of a particular item. At no stage does the house change ownership when a tenant is renting so the cases you’re linking too are irrelevant to the landlord and tenant situation.

I don’t have an in depth knowledge of the legalities that exist between a landlord and tenant agreement, I’ve never needed to know them as when I was renting the rent was always paid in full and on time. But from what I’m reading and hearing it seems that a tenant can legally get away with not paying rent for up to 18 months before being evicted due to the procedures that have to be followed by the landlord. If that’s the case then I’m sorry but in my opinion that’s completely wrong and must be a major factor in why there are so many vacant properties around.

Anything over 2 months should be enough to start the required procedures and by 4 months the option should be there to immediately evict the tenant of no payment schedule or agreement has been proposed.

Why anyone would want the hardship of being a landlord and taking them risks baffles me but without landlords the rental situation will get a whole lot worse.

Anyone that thinks Sinn Fein, or any other party apart from FF or FG getting into power, will be able to just supply the whole country with free social housing is living in cuckoo land so landlords are going to be important for housing to be provided.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119484230#Comment_119484230

100%

How anyone can't agree with the above baffles me tbh

I suspect they are either dim, angry, hate being wrong to the point where they would argue black is white .......or benefit in some way from the status quo.

Grumpypants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119484169#Comment_119484169

Most tenants are great. I've a great family in my house. But the margins are tight, I, like with most landlords, will run a loss for 10 more years before the mortgage is cleared and I can finally flip into profit.

So the risk of a bad tenant lingering, even if that risk is less than 1%, it's enough to put people off. If my family moves out I'll sell unless there is some serious reforms.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119484277#Comment_119484277

I think socialist resentment has been funnelled against small business owners for several reasons.

One is that big corporations provide employment and are too powerful to challenge anyway so it is easier to leave them alone if you are not very brave.

Another is that people don't understand the QE system, gave their assent to it in 2009 and again in March 2020 because the media told them to, and don't consider how it effectively drives monetary inflation, especially as reflected in rents which went up before anything else did.

I think you would see the same thing in a food price crisis. Small foodsellers would probably get most of the blame and the likes of Tesco, Lidl would skate, with complicity from media, the government and ordinary people.

In fact this already sort of happened as DCC put outdoor food market operators out of business on health and safety grounds during covid even while big indoor supermarlets were classed as "essential".

The QE system is an abstraction while your LL has a name, a face and perhaps a character flaw or two.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119484100#Comment_119484100

Yes possession changes however unbalanced regulations ( and that is what this is) is a disaster. It not the first unbalanced regulatory authority we have had in Ireland, remember the PSA they over regulated the house security system. They collapsed it. There original reason de etra was to regulate bouncers. However there was not enough funding coming from them so they got there hands on house alarm provision. They then regulated in such a way that electricians could not wire your house for an alarm.

We do regulation very bad in Ireland we go completely over the top.

Everything you stated by ownership changing was tripe and waffle.

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119483577#Comment_119483577

Tradesmen or any other business are not allowed include loan repayments as a cost either, if that's what you are getting at. Loans repayments are liabilities, they are not costs, landlords need to understand that

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119485253#Comment_119485253

You are incorrect there any loans and interest associated with your business ate tax deductible

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119485314#Comment_119485314

I'm afraid not, interest is indeed a cost but loans appear on your balance sheet, as a liability. Costs appear on your profit and loss sheet, where your profit is calculated

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119485372#Comment_119485372

Loans in most business are a cost as well. It depends on what they are for. Even capital loans for construction in most Business are depreciated over 8-20 years depending on the business.

Bass Reeves

Just an indication of part of the rental crisis

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0817/1316265-student-accommodation/

But then again there's no need for small LL's

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119485555#Comment_119485555

Depreciation is also a balance sheet item and not a cost to the business.

The purchase price of an asset is a once off cost. Servicing your debt/liabilities (I.e. loan repayments) are not.

This is the point most people are getting at here - for a typical landlord, you're cash flow might be poor because you chose to take on debt and need to service that debt, however youre income, profit and your asset value is at an all time high.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119485555#Comment_119485555

Only qualifying loan interest can be deducted for companies constructing assets (or any other loan).

There are accounting standards which disallow your version.

Also, tax rules disallow claiming capital repayments as a deduction. If not, you would need to claim the loan as income on receipt e.g. 1m loan at higher rate of tax = 520k and claim back over the life of the loan.

Residential property is not subject to capital allowances for companies or individuals.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119485689#Comment_119485689

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119485765#Comment_119485765

The tax treatment of LL's completely different to any other business. For instance the PRSI you pay is not allowed for OAP purposes. I do not think anyone is is looking for capital payments to be allowed against tax. There is other accountancy anomalies as well.

The way the tax law is structured you may not be allowed to write down repairs as they can considered improvements to a house. I have never seen any loan taken out by a business where it's not a qualifying loan except where farmland is concerned. Even then the interest is tax deductible.

Any loan or spending within a company is sheltered anyway

redarmyblues

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479141#Comment_119479141

We were all in beyant pre the 90s building up and tearing England down, you had all the rental you wanted but no jobs.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119486068#Comment_119486068

Hmm, you should revise the entirety of your post, it seems you are confused as to the meaning of capital, which is not the same as capital expenditure...

You can assume all the payment of loan amounts recieved regardless of purpose, are not deductible for ST or Companies. Only the interest is. In the past, there was % restrictions on mortgage interest relief, but now 100% can be reclaimed once registered with the RTB. I don't do many farmers cases, but I cannot think offhand of any relief that allows anything other than interest to be deducted from a tax return.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119487884#Comment_119487884

Everything in farming is tax deductible. Sheds are written down over eight years. If you make a loss it allowable against PAYE income.

In any other business investors/ business owners are allowed substantial tax reliefs on retirement. This is not allowed to LL.

I am not interested in nit picking over what is and is not capital. Neither Am I interest in a technical discussion of what is considered taxed and is not allowed taxed. The reality is we have a rental accomodation crisis. People trying to be technocratic about it are fooling themselves if they think many LL are going to hang around unless there is serious change

I can carry my investments. If the sh!t dose not improve,I will flog one and convert the other into an Airbnb.

Guess who looses it's not me. Sneer away with you thinking that because you are an accountant you have superior tax understanding skills. In reality you are only a glorified bookkeeper

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119488031#Comment_119488031

You did make these points incorrectly and continue to do so.

Capital allowances are absolutely not related to loans.

Here's a suggestion - don't post anything beyond your knowledge?

I see you are a Warren Buffet landlord, converting farm sheds into Airbnb to finance your lifestyle 😂

Shelga

I find the polarised response to the article tiring. It's possible to think the situation for renters in Ireland is dire, while also thinking much of the current system is unfair to small landlords too. Sure enough the responses were "do you expect to have a risk-free investment?"- how does that mean it's ok for it to be impossible for tenants to be evicted if they don't pay rent, the ridiculous RPZ rules that seem to just drive landlords out of the market, the fact that they are taxed so much more than REITs, etc etc.

If landlords didn't have to pay something like 52% of rental income in tax, and the rest on the mortgage, surely rents would be lower? Maybe that's stupidly naive of me though, but there's got to be some way of linking them. If I rented out my house, where the mortgage is €900, I'd have to charge about €1800 in rent just to break even. It seems crazy. Never mind all of the lost months if a tenant refuses to pay.

My sympathies will always lie more with people who just cannot buy even a single property, never mind multiple ones to rent out, and feel despairing and hopeless of any kind of future in this country, but it doesn't mean FFG have not made everything worse as usual with how the system works for small time landlords.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119488471#Comment_119488471

Not a farm shed an old farm house that I completely refurbished between 2015-2018 and now have rented.bit was part of my retirement planning.

Everyone finds there lifestyle whether it's a drug habit that you fund through petty criminal activity or a person working who is trying to support a family.

Like I said you are trying to have a technical discussion about taxation l. You are just waffling. Like all wafflers you fail to see the problem. When you cannot see the problem you can never see solutions

Like many on these threads you seem to be very balanced where LL and rentals are concerned. You have a chip on both shoulders about it.

It was interesting that even SF was on about changing the tax treatment of LL. However I suspect that the government will caught up too much in adding more hoops to the system and it will be of no benefit to LL's

arctictree

Saw the big queues yesterday for a rental in Dublin. Over 100 people in it. Would it not just be whoever pays the most gets it? Let the market find it's value.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119488643#Comment_119488643

I don't know if which versions would be considered waffle, the incorrect emotional argument or the correct version. Making silly arguments just presents noise and 0 gets done.

There are far wider issues here, and tax treatment is not one of them, certainly a lower rate can be request to entice landlords, but it would be ineffective as the risk of a market fall in purchase price or rent would make tax reliefs inconsequential.

The main issues affecting risk of fall would be measures aimed at:

1. Zoned land held by developers/ investment firms but not under development.

2. Difficulties obtaining permission for smaller developments.

3. Reducing increasing monopolisation in the building trade and land investment firms.

4. Economic recession.

As far making it easier to be a landlord, we need to see a more effective way to recover property quickly where rent payments are not made, in return I certainly would support a system where a court can mediate a reduced payment in cases of extreme hardship but in return for tax breaks on capital gains or Income tax.

The overall problem is our political parties are not capable, those in power have a history of favoring developers, those not in power intend to spend more taxes on social housing.

See no chips 😂

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119488690#Comment_119488690

Or whomever the private property owner wants to rent to

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119488945#Comment_119488945

And most of what you posted there will have no effect on houses prices.

1 There may be a myrid of reasons a site is not being developed from.planning to services etc. However even if all these are solved at present we are building as many houses as the labour avastrul manage to complete. I know no building tradesman not working a six day week.

2 ya this is an issue but we no longer have the small builders that can develop these sites. It's interesting that a large developer stated that the insistance on housing density was the main reason for smaller gardens. These rules are probably preventing development in smaller urban areas as there is little demand for apartments or townhouses in these areas

3 what monopolisation in the building trades. We just do not have enough trades people especially in the fuve basic building trades ( block layer, carpenter, plasterer, plumber and electrician). The demand for electricians is particularly acute as all electrical work now needs certification. Developers always bought sites that they might take 5+ years to develop.

4 Economic recession unless it leads to wholesale job losses in the MNC sector will not cause a structural fall in house prices. If it that happens it will be an economic problem. They lose there jobs, the people servicing those firms let employees go. Anybody unemployed cannot get a mortgage. Builders stop building as it's uneconomic to do so.

Which came first the chicken or the egg.

Even with all that it has nothing to do with the present rental issus and the exiting of smaller LL from the rental business.

Like I often say to people when they propose solution to issues like this ''be careful what you wish for ''

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119489048#Comment_119489048

Any of those issues absolutely will effect prices.

I do not particularly wish for a fall, I own properties that will be effected.

Monopolisation refers to the companies hiring tradesmen, there are few operators in the market. Allowing smaller developers was discouraged as a result of priory Hall, but it looks like all apartments built at that time had fire issues of some sort, but it is more profitable for government ministers to deal with larger developers.

Anyway, I firmly believe it is price barriers and enforcement that need to be resolved before new landlords enter the market, landlords cash in properties at a certain stage, with the recent gains they would be crazy not to, some of these would probably enter the market again if the price was right.

I'm not saying there aren't landlords who don't want to be in the market anymore, but there are plenty who would appreciate the income and capital gains more than the hassle of dealing with tenants.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119488624#Comment_119488624

I agree with much if not all of that

But just a couple of points

1) It's very polarised imo because of hhe absolute resentment people seem to have for landlords........say anything and its nearly an attack from certain posters...its not a debate its an attack.....

2) Personally I don't think the tax treatment is the biggest issue.....its not being able to shift on delinquent tenants quickly and having no real way of recouping rent losses/damages.....that setup is a disgrace and isn't so ridiculously one sided in other jurisdictions as to incentivise overholding

That situation is not a level playing field and the fact that no political parties will talk about it but instead want yo talk about possible tax breaks tells you how unlikely it is to change and what the direction of travel is

The simple fact afaic is when a tenant stops paying I should be able to get them to leave and pursue for damages in a timely fashion and with some hope of recouping losses or some consequences that make it unpalatable for a tenant to go down that road......

If a system is put in place to do that you would see lower rents etc without even going near tax I'd say

People are terrified of the hassle a small percentage of delinquents can bring and like a lot of things in this country that small percentage pepresents the tail wagging the dog....

Like I said in a previous post, mortgage rates are higher in this country because banks have to factor in not being able to reposess and sell ...so the rest of us pay handsomely for the small percentage that take the piss....its not the same and changing but there is an element of it in insurance rates due to awards for personal injury claims ..again a small %of scammers were/are making the rest of us pay and not being disincentised....

That's a big part of the issue with rental crisis and the RTB, populist decisions have a lot to do with it.....you wouldn't be in your right mind deciding to be a small landlord now unless you have criminal connections/power that means a tenant wouldn't cross you imo....or you are not a small landlord and you have enough properties to be able to absorb the loss of one or two

private

I'm thinking of getting in to renting😱. Was going to sell but think holding on to an asset and getting the mortgage paid off will help provide in my retirement. As I don't want the hassle or risk, I'm looking at leasing to the council. It's in an area with a strong need for housing as it's very popular with tourists. This way a local family gets a local house at a reasonable rent and some decent security of tenure. I could rent it out in the summer for €1500 + a week (nice sea views even) but I hate the idea. Give it back to the community and hopefully give me an eventual decent retirement income. 15 years left on mortgage. Payment's €550 per month. Where's the catch?