Collins Centenary Setpiece

Quitelife

Michael Collins and most of his colleagues are turning in their graves that a hundred years after the War of Independence we still haven't managed to have all 32 counties free.

They managed to get 26 but all our weak leaders since have failed meekly to complete the job !!

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505118#Comment_119505118

It's not a 'job' to be completed. It is up to the people of NI themselves to see if they want to join the South and we with them.

If you said yes to the GFA, you would agree to that.

thefa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119504290#Comment_119504290

What’s caught my attention recently which is glossed over in the history books to me is the executions. Studied Collins a fair bit for a project in my teens and I guess the executions didn’t really start until after his death. I’m not able to establish how much, if any, of a factor Collin’s death was in them starting. You could claim that Collin’s had been ruthless in exectution of opposition during the war of independence but I wouldn’t have thought it was on his agenda for irregulars at his time of death. Was it purely a way to try to end the war quicker through fear when it became a guerilla war?

Coming from the countryside, there’s still FF & FG families. Is the establishment of that political divide over the years due to the treaty alone or did executions contribute significantly to it?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505060#Comment_119505060

I see you are spouting ahistorical crap again.

Tell me, did the IRA of 1921 plant scores of bombs in and around the British mainland and especially targeted protestant businesses in what amounts to war crimes? Even Tom Barry had issue with the PIRA at the time, who had NO political mandate, another big important difference between the two IRA's.

Lets look at the facts. SF/PIRA of Gerry Adams fame knew the gig was up in 1980, yet it took them another 17 years to get it through their thick skulls.

Collins at the first opportunity took the deal/treaty that gave Ireland the chance to take its freedom and to make it grow.

We all know you would have never said yes to the treaty or to any deal that created partition. Sure, you are on record in saying we must have done whatever it took to ensure that partition would never have occurred, including full-on invasion and killing hundreds of thousands of Unionists.....

That is the peace that you wanted.

Luckily we had men like Collins in power, seeing sense back in the day. Not modern-day edgelords or keyboard warriors.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505178#Comment_119505178

Your particular itches are not for this thread Mark. You raised these issues on other threads and got your answers.

This one is about the 'Collins Centenary Setpiece' and FG and FF's part in it.

The OP asks are there votes for FG in Varadkar's latest clutching onto the coat tails of now good 'terrorist's'.

What do you think?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505060#Comment_119505060

It's interesting that one of the first atrocious of the Irish Civil war was carried out in Kerry. Two local Irish army officers were executed after there capture in Kenmare in early September 1922. The Anti- treaty forces also targeted the families and relative's of pro treaty supporters from early in the civil war.

All civil wars are horrific. The present SF trying to lay claim to any of it is a disgrace especially with there action in NI from 1968-1998.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505178#Comment_119505178

no what gerry knew, even though he wasn't a member of the IRA, is that if they kept the campaign going they would drive the british army to a stailmate and get a better deal, which they did, meanwhile in the back ground he would do the political work along with others via sinn fein.

colins on the other hand didn't see sense, he was stupid and ultimately a a traitor who went against orders instead of following them and in turn created one of the most sectarian statelets in the world and did not really gain irish freedom, only part freedom.

ireland would have been a much better place without partition and the nonsense that goes on in the north would be long gone.

and by the way what FB suggested was a UN mandated peace keeping mission not an invasion of NI, you should therefore withdraw this continuing lie that FB suggested an invasion when he didn't.

Quitelife

BBC Northern Ireland at Lunchtime had a piece on Michael Collins IRA leader as they called him - who was involved in the death of many British soldiers .Never knew he was elected MP for Armagh in 1921 , one of 6 Sinn Fein MPs elected who refused to take their seatsas they wouldnt recognise the Queen.

Doubt if Michael Collins would have stood idly by like all the other leaders since.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505242#Comment_119505242

Not sure what that has to do with my post, if anything.

Quite frankly the consequences of the commemoration event at Beal na Bla / Gleann na Ruaige (see RTE website for UCC academic explanation) are the opposite of reconciliation if that was the intention. The divisions are starker this morning. RTE are implicated. It’s almost as if yesterday was an internal FF/FG bonding exercise with no regard for a wider reconciliation; a reckless party first event with the state apparatus used to gain amplification.

As we head into the executions of the 77 someone needs to assert a state management of all further events that the state and the Defence Forces are dragged into.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505139#Comment_119505139

I know it breaks your heart but there's nothing in the GFA that says the reunification of this country is not unfinished business

I

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505250#Comment_119505250

the IRA could have had that deal in 73, Gerry was one of the people who put the kibosh on it. 30 odd on from the GFA, we can see the only deal Gerry got was to make sure that SF had a future running NI for Britain

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505407#Comment_119505407

'Could' is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. And you should really be listening to Unionists and where they feel they are now as a result of the GFA. Equality has been achieved and Unionists are kicking and railing against it. SF will keep reaping the rewards for that from the electorate while those who backed the sham of Sunningdale flounder. Realities that are hard to stomach for some.

Not interested in diverting the thread, just thought I'd point that out.

Sardonicat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119498609#Comment_119498609

That's not the first time I've encountered that theory. My history lecturer believed the same (can't remember his name, apologies) . Collind was great man to have running things when overthrowing power. Not such a good idea to have him in power.

I think there was something "off" about Collins. He had a kind of arrogance in the face of danger during The War of Independence and he had a habit of instigating tussles with his friends which many found deeply unsettling. There's no doubt he held the respect of many on the Republican side, that he was loved dearly by most who knew him and was very charismatic. But sometimes charisma like that is a dangerous thing. There was already something of a personality cult for Collins before he was killed. To some extent there still is. Would we have ended up with a longterm military dictatorship if Collins hadn't been killed? Who knows for sure? But had he survived into the 1930s as Fascism grew and spread it's not unfair to question whether an authoritarian and charismatic leader like Collins could have taken Ireland down that path.

I think it would be more fitting to remember the Civil War than to focus solely on Collins. There were honourable people of principal on both sides and likewise awful atrocities committed by both sides. Great people were lost on both sides. Remembering and reflecting on this and gratitude that it didn't erupt into something like what happened to Spain a decade later would be more fitting than just commerating one of the many young, talented and brave people who died during that awful period of our past.

Sardonicat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119501626#Comment_119501626

There are those who believe that by that stage in the hostilities, Collins had a death wish.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505463#Comment_119505463

Your first mistake is thinking this weekend had anything to do with proper respectful rememberance (it probably did for many, but not the principal players/speakers)

It was basically a grubby hijack for political purposes.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505531#Comment_119505531

😂

Ahh hilarious.

Anyway for the majority of people in Ireland yesterday was a day of remembrance and the event was a success.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505557#Comment_119505557

Any data on how the 'majority' felt?

No, I didn't think so. 🙄

Strazdas

On Collins' actual death, he was very reckless that day. Unlike many of the men around him who had fought in the British Army and the War of Independence, he had virtually zero military experience. Getting into a gun battle with the ambushers, running around with a rifle etc was asking for trouble.....almost a sign of total immaturity on his part.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505630#Comment_119505630

Any to say not, oh I don't think so 🤔

Carry on 👍️

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505673#Comment_119505673

There's a story in Frank O'Connor's biography about Collins and Boland visiting my home town in 1921. They stayed in a local hotel and the joy of being back together spilled over into 'endless horseplay' with Collins throwing Boland's boots out an upper window of the hotel. The same boots Boland used as US special envoy to smuggle the document proclaiming Ireland’s Claim to Independence to the US, hidden in the soles. They are now in the National Museum.

It really is an eyeopener to how young these men were. A lot of life lived in a very short time.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505770#Comment_119505770

So just make it up? Okie doke. Got your measure.

TL17

Yesterday was an outstanding success. A huge thanks to everyone who made it what it was - A really really lovely day to witness first hand. A day to remember.

Michael Martin spoke like a statesman. Probably his finest ever IMO (I'm neither FF or FG but make my mind up at each election) We are lucky to live in this wonderful country and the 1000s yesterday acknowledged this in their generous cheers and bualadh bos. A tiny minority would try to convince us otherwise. But Michael Collins got the respect he deserved yesterday and our country continues to be a place to be proud of.

We can never know what might have happened had he not been shot. But he did more for Ireland in his short lifetime than any one before or since.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505782#Comment_119505782

I've heard it said that whilst Collins was very intelligent and a master strategist, he also seemed very immature in other ways. Getting into horseplay as you say with his colleagues, more like he was still a teenager. Obviously a mass of contradictions.....his immaturity almost certainly came into play with his death, taking unnecessary risks during that gun battle.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505855#Comment_119505855

Yeh, a real case of youthful 'it will never happen to me' bravado that has seen many many gone before their time.

I searched online and found one photo that summed up the ending of division much better than yesterdays politicized embarrassment. I can’t link to it but you can find a photo of Tom Barry at Sam’s Cross unveiling the Collins memorial.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505454#Comment_119505454

Cause that whats the Provos were fighting for eh? Equality

How shamelessly the past is remoulded to suit the present 😂

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506020#Comment_119506020

Certainly, was a part of it.

The fight and resistance of the entire nationalist community including those who supported the Provos resulted in the GFA - the electorate rewarded those who they see as helping achieve it and maintaining it (more to the point)

'Rewrite' the present realities as much as you want. Futile imo but I'm sure you will persist. 😁

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505250#Comment_119505250

You are aware that NI was created by the Government of Ireland Act in 1920 which was voted on in Westminster? NI is a creation of the British Empire, not of Collins. Britain alone is to blame for the mess that is NI. Maybe you should read up on this history of this island before commenting in future. The decision faced by the plenipotentiaries was one of a 26 county dominion or all out war vs. the British Empire. The people of Ireland were fatigued from war at that stage. A victory was won, albeit incomplete. Note also that the Treaty was passed in Dail Eireann, it had a democratic mandate at the time. The Civil War was a huge mistake by both sides and it's ramifications are still felt to this day. We messed up partition ourselves by entrenching it in the first 20 years of self governance. If you want a scapegoat for partition, look elsewhere than Collins. Britain is to blame ultimately.

What would you alternative have been to the Treaty? Continue fighting a Guerilla war against Britain until all young Irish volunteers were killed? I'm sure Collins was acutely aware of the IRA's capability to continue fighting when he signed the Treaty. Guessing the IRA had little left to give.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505454#Comment_119505454

Equality has been achieved and Unionists are kicking and railing against it

Equality?

The violent campaign of militant republicanism was never about equality, it was about kicking the Brits out of Ireland and to hell with anyone who didn't agree.

The word Equality was used after the fact to dress up the peace as something extremists like yourself can swallow and claim victory from defeat.