Collins Centenary Setpiece

History Queen

Blazz, if you're interested in the period have a read of this. It'll give you a more rounded sense of what was at stake and exactly what Churchill and the British negotiators were capable vs the Irish negotiating team. Obviously there are lots of books written in more detail, but this is a pretty good starting point for analysis of the negotiations and aftermath.

https://www.historyireland.com/winston-churchill-and-michael-collins-1919-22-their-conflicting-views-of-ireland-and-its-future/

Galwayguy35

Some guy was on the radio earlier saying they should dig him up and examine the skull bueause he thinks Collins was done in by one of his own men.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506881#Comment_119506881

I shall leave the obvious rejoinder to be inferred.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507029#Comment_119507029

Very likely. In fact one of his party said he could have shot him by accident. He was the only man shot in the ambush, one fatal round to the head, not the body odd as most would be traiined to aim at the body shooting from any longer distance.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507100#Comment_119507100

Another thing I found interesting is the autopsy results were burned in a fire and not one bullet was found at the scene of the ambush.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507100#Comment_119507100

Folks, the mystery of who shot Collins isn’t. Denis “Sonny” O’Neill did. He said “at least I dropped one of them”. As you said, only one man shot in the ambush.

As for all the rest about dum dum, Mauser pistols is just noise.

And all gloriously irrelevant.

saabsaab

Sonny wasn't there at that time! As said by some of those there.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/who-killed-michael-collins-new-evidence-casts-doubt-on-chief-suspect-1.4653243

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507332#Comment_119507332

Of course not.

To help those interested along. A new thread. Who shot Michael Collins.

And they’re off!

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506707#Comment_119506707

You've a strange way of twisting words there. The GFA came about under different circumstances and was entitled 'Sunningdale for slow learners' by Seamus Mallon. It came after years of Anglo Irish negotiations and US intervention. Political unionism in its current form is facing an existential crisis now that the largest party in NI is SF. Hence the opposition to going into goverment in Stormont as Deputy leader. Unionists will have to come to terms with being equal to nationalists in their own little statelet very soon. And that's what they fear most about a United Ireland and constitutional republicanism, having to consider themselves equal to the Taigs.

Strazdas

People saying that Collins was responsible for partition of the country are ignoring that the British were already floating the idea as far back as late 1916 (when Collins was a complete nobody) and it had firmly taken root by 1920-21. It's simply not the case that partition suddenly emerged as an option during the Treaty negotiations.

FrancieBrady

I was at a 3 day seminar led by Michael D Higgins before the Decade of Commemorations commenced and I think it was Diarmuid Ferriter who talked about the difficulties ahead.

Higgins had just given a great intelligent and considered paper on 'ethical commemoration' and I think that was very well balanced by the State around 1916 centenary events which went above and beyond to be inclusive and respectful.

Ferriter (I think it was, maybe wrong) responded by agreeing with Higgins but warned that as the centenaries progressed into the civil war and WOI events that attempts to exclude and own might be made and things would get contentious again.

He was spot on as we seen this week. What should have been an event that included all political parties turned into a hijack by the civil war parties, a cringeworthy attempt to try to own a man and his legacy. A cheap and tawdry spectacle to be honest.

Mismanagement has been the hallmark of the DoC. 1916 celebrations just about worked after the initial govt proposals were severely challenged by relatives. Even then the issue of “inclusion” ie two sidesing raised the fundamental issue of honouring those who attempted to suppress rebellion in the name of imperialism, racism, supremacism.

To some the issue of the Civil War raises the issue of honouring those who attempted to overthrow a democratic state. And FFG are more interested in a version of inclusion which bends over backwards to unionism while denigrating nationalism and republicanism. And the shocking news for FFG and SF is that the Provos and the modern alphabet soup IRA do not own republicanism. Even after the RIC debacle the penny didn’t drop.

it seems to me this morning that the problem lies in the fiction, that FFG deeply wish to be true, that we can revert to some happy clappy version of Home Rule where we are all some version of post modern Castle ex Catholics who believe being Irish is about U2 and singing “you’ll never beat the Irish” . They will not allow the state to face the truth of its war crimes while selectively raking over the war crimes of others. Inclusion it seems is only for those that they approve of. They will not face the truth of colonial harnessing of Ireland to the colonial project before 1916 and independence.

A great opportunity has nearly been lost. A mature state would have found a way to commemorate and honour without dividing its own population. There seems to be an indifference to that. “Pick a side” seems to be the height of their capacity.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509574#Comment_119509574

😂

Anything to back up this rant?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509574#Comment_119509574

A great opportunity has nearly been lost. A mature state would have found a way to commemorate and honour without dividing its own population. There seems to be an indifference to that. “Pick a side” seems to be the height of their capacity.

Exactly what Ferriter (I think. I will check the video when i get a chance) so astutely warned about.

The surprise I suppose, and I hope he addresses it, is that FG and FF have merged to hijack these state events. I think he thought the civil war parties would be at loggerheads.

But then again, at the time, the rise of SF hadn't begun. We live in interesting times.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509574#Comment_119509574

And what about IRA war crimes in NI as well as Anti Treaty forces war crimes. There is many who are selective but it's a two way thing.

The government was fighting for the survival of the state as we know it now what they fought for is the state we have now with both it's flaws and it good points.

Too many on the anti government forget that this government handed over power when it was democratically defeated even though one of it's ministers was assassinated only a few years previously.

Many forget it faced down an army mutiny in 1924. It formed a non militarized police forced. This was a government where two of its heads of state died within a month of each other.

A good few posting about selectivity forget that the IRA would have probably killed Collins and most of his convoy if it had arrived 60-90 minutes earlier.

Every civil war ever fought was a brutal affair. There was always atrocious on both side. Have many BSing here read about the US civil war, the Spanish civil war, the three civil wars in England, the Russian civil war, even the Balkans wars were civil wars of sorts.

None were tame affairs, the Irish Civil war was in the halfpenny place compared to any of them and that is not excusing what either side did.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509815#Comment_119509815

'This' government?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506668#Comment_119506668

The SF/PIRA of the late 60's and early 70's had no time for equality. It was quite clear for what they stood for. You only have to listen to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2tFrDIhgr8

"Compromise will NOT solve our countries' problems, compromise never achieved anything, and will never achieve anything.."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT3yGaF5qyA

"If it is in the interest of the Republican movement to re-commence offensive operations, we will do so" - Speaking after a PIRA ceasefire announcement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1gcWFdWN1o

When offensive operations are stated to recommence, the PIRA are clear on its demands. Not once do they mention equality.

The 3 demands from the PIRA at the time were

1. Declare their intention to withdraw from Northern Ireland.
2. Abolish Stormont
3. Declare General Amnesty

Fun fact, none of these 3 demands have been achieved in 2022.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506375#Comment_119506375

Trying to shoehorn in your hobbyhorse?

There is clear and obvious differences to NI and Ukraine. If you cannot see them or spot them, then I cant be of use to you.

However, I note you didn't answer the question. You think partition could have been avoided but never tell us how. Walter Mitty type thinking there Francie.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509913#Comment_119509913

No, just remarking on the similarities.

Dying pointlessly is pretty much the same where ever it may be.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509904#Comment_119509904

You musta missed the bit where I said 'was a part of' what they sought.

Read posts properly?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506412#Comment_119506412

Unionist votes to count for more than anyone else. He suggested permanent unionist cabinet members. Permanent. 

Can you quote where he said this, as I think you are deliberately taking stuff out of context? However, such arrangements are done elsewhere in the world. A UI will have us swallow a lot in the South.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509574#Comment_119509574

it seems to me this morning that the problem lies in the fiction, that FFG deeply wish to be true, that we can revert to some happy clappy version of Home Rule where we are all some version of post modern Castle ex Catholics who believe being Irish is about U2 and singing “you’ll never beat the Irish” 

Bigoted nonsense.

The first point of order is that you and others like you don't get to dictate to others what it is and isn't to be Irish.

People who sing 'Up da Ra' at a Wolfe Tones Concert are no more Irish than those you describe above. That's the point!

Im guessing you also have a problem with the 'New' Irish as well.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509925#Comment_119509925

Dying pointlessly is pretty much the same where ever it may be.

a) Are the Ukraines dying pointlessly so?

b) Why then did the PIRA conduct a war for 30 years to get... nowhere?

c) Do you concede that invading the North in 1921 or 1969 was also pointless?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509930#Comment_119509930

The only context where such arrangements are needed is a society like the north where a supremacist racist group with a gerrymandered majority abuses democracy to oppress the minority.

Has that happened in Ireland?

Your assertion that we will have to swallow a lot is ridiculous and as you are FG probably reflects their thinking and is true. Only a fool enters negotiations conceding in advance. Or someone who actually agrees with the others demands. Which raises the question of should you be representing Ireland in such negotiations. Or which Ireland you represent.

As for looking for sources here’s your answer: “There is clear and obvious differences to NI and Ukraine. If you cannot see them or spot them, then I cant be of use to you.”

Can I recommend that you create a new thread on the topic of interest to you.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509925#Comment_119509925

You musta missed the bit where I said 'was a part of' what they sought.

Where in the late 60's early 70's that the PIRA were interested in 'equality'

You made the point, now back it up?

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509979#Comment_119509979

The only context where such arrangements are needed is a society like the north where a supremacist racist group with a gerrymandered majority abuses democracy to oppress the minority.

Isn't that exactly what Sinn Fein are trying to do when pushing on a United Ireland, not based on what is good for Northern Ireland, just because they think they have a small majority?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509967#Comment_119509967

Well that was the point Sabrina Coyne made, that because it would be a stalemate, the deaths would be pointless. (I disagree with her as I said in the thread, but support her right to say it)

You made the same point about continuing the fight here,

'Continue fighting a Guerilla war against Britain until all young Irish volunteers were killed? 

can't you see the similarity, in the sentiment? I do.

P.S. Not going near the 'RA of the modern era stuff anymore. Off topic. Open a thread, no probs discussing and providing the source material that equality and an end to discrimination was part and parcel of what SF were trying to achieve and was not an add-on or after thought..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510016#Comment_119510016

I’m not sure what you are trying to say? Are you saying that the GFA is promoting a “supremacist racist group with a gerrymandered majority”? Wow.

Are you saying that what is good for the north is only what unionists consider good? Wow.

I strongly urge you to think about this very carefully. And not in public as you seem to be a defender of one political party.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510065#Comment_119510065

That's some spin 😂

Seems like I hit the nail on the head 👍️

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509979#Comment_119509979

The only context where such arrangements are needed is a society like the north where a supremacist racist group with a gerrymandered majority abuses democracy to oppress the minority.

So is New Zealand a supremacist and racist country so, as the Maori population have a certain number of MP's set aside in the NZ parliament?

Your assertion that we will have to swallow a lot is ridiculous and as you are FG probably reflects their thinking and is true. Only a fool enters negotiations conceding in advance. Or someone who actually agrees with the others demands. Which raises the question of should you be representing Ireland in such negotiations. Or which Ireland you represent.

So FG is not fit to enter into negotiations on the international stage. Is this your point?