Who shot Michael Collins.

Itssoeasy

https://youtu.be/SLrGnImYCwU

This is an interview with emmet dalton many years after the ambush.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508366#Comment_119508366

Lets look at the likelihood. Collins it is agreed suffered a catastrophic wound to the back of his head.

His cap was filled with blood and brain matter. It was buried shortly afterward then later dug up.

Dalton cradled what was left of his skull on the chaotic journey away from the ambush site

If Collins wound was an entry wound and a complete bullet which caused such damage (?) lodged in the remains of his head despite all the above …. Make up your own mind.

One doctor who examined Collins said the entry wound was near the hairline. The wound at the back was therefore exit. Add that to the above and is the likelihood of finding a bullet strong enough to justify exhumation? You decide.

The only comparable modern event of catastrophic head wound and car journey afterward I know is JFK in Dallas. This wiki article is quite graphic but shows the small entry wound and catastrophic exit wound to the skull.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_autopsy

Only bullet fragments were found. The complete bullet that wounded Connolly was found on a gurney in hospital. I believe it is reasonable to conclude that exhumation will not find a bullet.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508584#Comment_119508584

You might google 'Emmet Dalton in neverneverland a river of deception' I can't use the link for some reason.

Also the book The Shooting of Michael Collins: Murder or Accident Mercier Press, c1981. ISBN0946645035 by former Capt. John M Feehan questions the account he gives on many points. I have read it some time ago and don't have a copy now.

One point I saw is that Dalton said Collins cried out 'Emmet I'm hit' but it is said to be impossible to do so with the type of head wound Collins had.

thefa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508398#Comment_119508398

Don’t recall saying official but I don’t know the stance on investigations for combat deaths during the civil war to begin with. There’s been multiple investigations into his death - numerous books and articles.

As I said, no significant purpose. Acting like an autopsy of a 100 year old body is the silver bullet to crack the case is silly but you are asking for a link so you must be right!

Again to your original point, it’s not really suspicious at all that there’s little appetite to dig up his body. Adds to conspiracy ideas though.

saabsaab

Taken from a newspaper article..

'The most powerful man in the country received no investigation into his death.

There were no inquests allowed in Cork by order of Emmet Dalton, his second-in-command and travelling companion that fateful day.

The autopsy performed by Oliver St John Gogarty went missing, rumoured to have been destroyed by fire with other sensitive documents in 1932.

Incredibly, Collins doesn’t even have a death cert.

His Webley revolver auctioned for €72,000 in 2009

The hat in Collins’ Barracks museum, claimed to be his, is way too small and features a deliberate rip in an area far from where he was supposedly hit. The car he was in was immediately shipped back to the Leyland factory in England, cleaned, reupholstered and sold to a big game hunter in Kenya within the month.

There isn’t a single bit of forensic or ballistic evidence from the ambush –not one bullet.

Because of that lack of evidence, a host of theories and rumours have filled the vacuum to become the “official story” of what happened.

All accounts of Beal na Blath are based on hearsay and conflicting reports.

Dalton contradicted himself constantly over the years, denying drink was involved then privately saying alcohol was taken.'

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508647#Comment_119508647

Just read what I think is a PDF of the what you suggested I look for.

1. I’m not sure where emmet dalton has said the Bon’s was the hospital. I don’t think him getting it mixed up between the mercy and shanakiel is that big of a deal given there was cross over between the two.
2. in the video I posted above he says he thinks he heard someone say his name.
3. He says that dalton has made inflated things but then says it was a common occurrence.
4. I mean is it likely that emmet dalton mis remembered things ? Of course it is but I don’t think it was out of any malice.

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508577#Comment_119508577

I was more referring to the contradictions over the years, and to what they were going to do next. Many of the contradictions have been documented too, the route taken that day, via Clonakilty and Skibereen, how many vehicles were with them, how many soldiers, that there was no alcohol taken (and then that there was), the reason that he was down there with such small protection, and so one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508629#Comment_119508629

I'm not sure that an exhumation would be for that bullet. I think it would be for a few different reasons, including the possibility that he was also shot in the back. The Sonny O'Neil version is off too, as most versions I have heard mention him being a superior marksman, but that he shot a limestone rock and the bullet ricocheted to hit Collins in the back of the head, behind the ear.

The possible 2nd bullet was in his back also.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508774#Comment_119508774

The O’Neill version is about dropping a man. Only Collins dropped.

All sorts of things are possible but can we explain what happened without recourse to imagining scenarios? Yes

Collins had drink on board, maybe some of the escort too. The machine gun jammed. Collins stood up and moved to shoot at ambushers. O’Neill ex RIC and ex British Army trained rifleman shot him. Entry wound, Exit wound. Dead.

Chaos. To preserve the memory of the man and avoid inquiry that might reflect badly on him and maybe others Dalton does what he does.

It’s amazing what happens in the chaos of a VIP assassination. Under Texas law the JFK autopsy must be done in Texas. It was done in Washington. Because Jacqueline Kennedy insisted she was leaving with her husbands body and when Mr Rose the medical examiner stood in the door with an armed policeman to stop them leaving they were pushed out of the way by Kennedy aides. Chaos.

Its endlessly entertaining, earns a few euros for some, clickbait for others to trawl over it. And it will always be so.

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508789#Comment_119508789

I'm not disputing anything you are saying, I am just referring to the other explanations. I find the whole thing fascinating, but

The O’Neill version is about dropping a man. Only Collins dropped.

.......

O’Neill ex RIC and ex British Army trained rifleman shot him. Entry wound, Exit wound. Dead.

It isn't that clear cut though. You may like to believe it is.

There was an alleged 2nd gunshot wound seen in his back in the hospital he was taken to by a matron there.

Dalton was one of the few that said it was a ricochet, so that conflicts with the theory that O'Neil shot him with a perfectly aimed sniper shot. Allegedly O'Neil fired a warning shot, and it ricocheted off a limestone rock.

There is also zero evidence that O'Neil ever operated as a sniper for the RIC or the British Army.

In Cullivans documentary he points out things like witnesses on both sides at Béal na Bláth the ambush party were 150 metres (450 feet) and the shot was taken when visibility was low, and compares it to JFK being shot by Lee Harvey Oswald, who allegedly shot and killed him from 100 metres (300 feet) and he needed three shots to hit the president. He also speaks about O'Neils disability, and that it would have been even harder for him to do so with his disability (Right arm from the war).

It may also be worth pointing out that Cullivan seems to be convinced that Dalton, or somebody on Collin's side shot him, so he may be bending some facts to suit his narrative. But for the most, he is fairly straight down the line using facts. I personally don't believe the O'Neil version, ricochet etc.

thefa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507584#Comment_119507584

Not much credibility should be given to Paddy based on a number of those comments.

Disability references aren’t conclusive that O’Neill couldn’t shoot accurately anymore.

Comparison to JFK shooting is off too. Oswald had a much tighter timeframe and a moving target. Collin’s was out of the car and Dalton says the skirmish was about 15 minutes.

The part comparing O’Neill hitting Collin’s to winning the Euromillions twice in a week is pure showbiz. At the end of the day, he’s trying to sell tickets to his shows.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508810#Comment_119508810

You haven’t read earlier in the thread. Most of what you have written is complete fantasy and conjecture. The “other explanations” aren’t that. They are inventions. Stay with what happened. It doesn’t need fantasy.

History Queen

Sonny O'Neil is reputed to have confessed to shooting Collins on more than one occassion in various houses around Nenagh. He also, later in life, struck up an unlikely friendship/acquaintance with Johnny Collins who he apparently apologised to.

Having read upon this over the years through various sources I am personally convinced that O'Neill was the most likely perpetrator. I went to see Cullivans cutrently touring live show on the subject and found him unconvincing and just a bit too focused on unfixing the narrative of O'Neil being the chief suspect. That being said, we'll never know with certainty.

Below is my understanding of events.

On the evening Collins died, O'Neill made his way with another man (name escapes me right now) back towards the ambush site from a local safe house where he had gone to eat when the decision was made to call off the ambush. He approached from a higher elevation, along a side road having heard the shots being fired. When Collins stepped out from behind the car he was travelling in to take a shot at the ambushers O'NEill shot at him from an angle higher up and to the side of Collins not from the same angle as the original ambush. This helps explain both the angle he was hit at and the conflicting reports about whether O'Neill was there.

Feisar

Can we drop the sniper thing, just because Sonny O'Neill didn't operate or serve as a sniper does not mean he wasn't capable of hitting a man in the open with iron sights. **** me, I'll have a go at a melon at 150 yards at the weekend, and I'll be disappointed if I don't hit it for sport.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509962#Comment_119509962

I pointed out earlier some of the standards achieved with iron sights etc. It’s not necessary to be Olympic level and have telescopic sights. We love our mysteries.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508736#Comment_119508736

It may indeed not be malice or intended deception and we don't know what may have influenced him but it does call his account of the shooting into question. I mean no death certificate, no autopsy in existance, no proper enquiry. Would any of this hold up in a court of law? Is he even legally dead?

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507677#Comment_119507677

Yes it is, pardon the pun, mindblowing to think all this was happening just 100 years ago. It would have been my parents grandparents time. To think people were going around ambushing other groups, murdering them. Even looking back at the cars and the way they dress. It's really not that long ago at all.

brianhere

I think he was killed by his driver, Michael Bartholomew Corry, who drove a bus for CIE in Dublin in after years https://www.sarsfieldsvirtualpub.com/threads/who-really-killed-michael-collins.160/

Sonny O'Neill is a classic red herring/ rabbit hole, for whom there was never any real evidence but is pumped out by the official/academic community in Ireland.

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510489#Comment_119510489

Well it’s not uncommon for people to experience the same thing and have different recollections of the event. It doesn’t mean there is intentional. I don’t know if it’s widely available but is emmet dalton’s original statement about the events online ? It would be interesting to see as it would be the best one to see.

Any accounts of these events by anyone still alive in the 1960/1970s would need to be taken with a pinch of salt due to simply the passage of time.

maybe you don’t know the answer but did every person killed in this time period get an autopsy, death cert ? I very much doubt it given the way the country was. And the bone of contention is not that Collins was killed or where the bullet hit him, but as the thread title said, who shot him.

Butson

Sonny O'Neill did serve in World War 1, supposedly as a sniper but there is no official paperwork to back that up - for him or any other snipers for that matter.

Also from the entry wound across the back of the head, it most like was a ricochet off a rock behind Collins.

All very sad really. Collins was an extremely arrogant man, what was he doing travelling around West Cork in an open car, it was a hotbed of "irregular" activity at the time.

Feisar

IMHO the focus on Sonny O'Neill just because he was considered a marksman is a bit much. He may have been, he may not have been. One doesn't need to be a sniper to earn a marksman's badge in the army, just be a good shot. But what I don't get is that why the focus on him? There were a load of lads shooting at the convoy and a man breaking cover would naturally draw attention/fire. Anyone could have shot him. OK it was twilight so it must have been one of his own? Well the ambushers were facing west, the best possible option if shooting at twilight. Sure Collins may have been silhouetted. Also the idea that Collins wouldn't be got like that as he was the man that had thought all these guerrilla tactics? No disrespect however he was not and never was trained as a front line soldier. This ain't Tom Barry we are talking about here.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511007#Comment_119511007

I don't know the answer re the autopsy/death certs at the time but someone should know the answer. Maybe someone here? Still you'd expect one for someone so senior and so high profile.

brianhere

Any suspicious death is supposed to have Inquest, then and now. However, as it happens, Emmet Dalton banned inquests in his part of Munster a few weeks after the death of Collins.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511036#Comment_119511036

It was said by some that he wanted to hold talks with the rebels to bring an end to the war. However, I read that Emmet Dalton when asked about this later said Collins didn't discuss this with him.

frosty123

Lee Harvey Oswald ?

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511113#Comment_119511113

I mean I know that one of the doctors in shanakiel hospital examined the body of Michael Collins that night so it’s not as if we are completely in the dark and I don’t know if the doctor wrote it down so it was an autopsy of sorts just maybe not to the letter of the law as it stood then.

Itssoeasy

I have meda Ryan’s book at home which in relation to the immediate aftermath and what happened in the hospital was very thorough. I’ll be able to check and refresh my memory on what the doctors in the hospital said.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511403#Comment_119511403

Would those papers/report/files still exist? Might be filed away somewhere?

brianhere

The main altopsy was conducted by Oliver S Gogarty in Dublin. His report has since been lost out of a government safe. No, there was no public inquiry of any description into the death of Collins. The same thing has happened to his hat, two hand guns found at the scene, and his diaries on him at the time. All these are lost/disappeared.

cnoc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510489#Comment_119510489

Why didn't the Collins family look for/demand an autopsy; an inquiry or a death certificate?

SuperBowserWorld

Bloody hell

Neil Jordan

The director

Shot Michael Collins

The movie