Undertaking on hard shoulder?

Cameron326

Today my friend was driving along a one lane national road, speed limit 100km. IE just one lane heading north, and one lane in the opposite direction heading south. Far ahead of us there was a car which had stopped and was trying to make a right turn to turn off the national road. So my friend slowed right down behind that vehicle, to wait for it to make the turn. It was taking the driver a while as there was a lot of traffic in the other direction. My friend later claimed he was always taught only to use the hard shoulder in an emergency so he was therefore just waiting patiently behind this driver who was trying to turn right. 5-10 seconds later I noticed a car zooming in behind us way to fast, and that car only just managed to stop in time to avoid us, and seemed in half a mind to swerve past us to the left and undertake us on the hard shoulder. Fortunately he just managed to reduce his speed in time. That panicked my friend a bit and so, as the car in front still hadn’t made the turn (he seemed to be missing gaps to go, although his right indicator was still on, I don’t know why the car was not moving off) my friend decided to carefully pass him on the left using the hard shoulder, and than I noticed that at least half a dozen other vehicles followed our car also using the hard shoulder to undertake the stopped/turning car which was still blocking the whole lane. Did my friend drive correctly, or should he have used the hard shoulder in the first instance to avoid bringing the fast moving traffic behind to a standstill due to being stuck behind the car trying to turn right? Or was the guy who zoomed right up behind us not observing the stopped traffic ahead just driving very dangerously?

J_R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058260543/undertaking-on-hard-shoulder

Hi,

My friend later claimed he was always taught only to use the hard shoulder in an emergency.

What idiot taught him that ?

From Rules of the Road.

This road contains a hard shoulder, which is normally only for pedestrians and cyclists. If a driver wants to allow a vehicle behind them to overtake, they may pull in to the hard shoulder briefly (but do not continue driving in the hard shoulder) as long as no pedestrians or cyclists are already using it and no junctions or entrances are nearby. Different rules exist for hard shoulders on motorways. See Section 11 for details

Also from the Rules

You may overtake on the left when

You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved out and signalled that they intend to turn right. You have signalled that you intend to turn left. Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly but traffic in the left-hand lane is moving more quickly than the right-hand lane – for example, in slowmoving stop-start traffic.

Pinch Flat

You can undertake in the hard shoulder if a car is turning right ahead. Obviously subject to condition- a lot are in rag order - and not being used by a pedestrian or cyclist

J_R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119527998#Comment_119527998

Hi,

You may also move over into the hard shoulder to allow traffic to overtake

Cameron326

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119527998#Comment_119527998

Thanks for clarifying. Would you say that my friend should have undertaken the turning car immediately though as the first option, or was he correct to totally reduce his speed and wait behind him for him to make the turn?

Whocare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528192#Comment_119528192

It Obvious that you should have passed immediately on inside . The road are not joke this type of stopped on road for no reason could cause a Pileup

plus it pretty obvious you must have been driving by yourself as Experienced driver would know keep Traffic moving instead stopping traffic for no reason that could cause a crash

Cameron326

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528229#Comment_119528229

Thanks for the reply, but actually you are incorrect in your random assumption!

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119527972#Comment_119527972

So he wasn't allowed to undertake using the hard shoulder according to that?

Eoinbmw

Could have caused a serious accident just stopped in road no indicators or hazards bloody ape!

Cameron326

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528351#Comment_119528351

Yeah that was my thinking too, though he’s had a full license for three years vs only a year for me, and he was sure he shouldn’t have used hard shoulder as he was just expecting to just need to slow down/stop for a few seconds (as the car in front was indicating to turn off the main road to the right). He said on a normal road travelling at 80km you often won’t have a hard shoulder and so just have to wait behind turning traffic, so he was basically blaming the car behind for not keeping an eye out and coming to a safe gradual stop (the car behind was initially a good 500 metres behind him so he thought it was poor observation from that driver driver not reducing speed in good time). Anyway just wanted another opinion in case I ever encounter same myself while at the wheel.

Pinch Flat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528192#Comment_119528192

My own preference would be to get past on the hard shoulder, provided it is safe to do so. Probably better than stopping behind and risk being rear ended.

Cameron326

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528338#Comment_119528338

Yeah the rules of road, don’t appear to clarify it beyond doubt. Though I guess common sense would have been to undertake on the hard shoulder.

J_R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528338#Comment_119528338

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058260543/undertaking-on-hard-shoulder

Hi,

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528338#Comment_119528338

Hi

How did you come to that conclusion. The relevant parts of ROTR

Overtaking on the left: when the driver in front of you has moved out and signalled that they intend to turn right.

And use of the hard shoulder:- they may pull in to the hard shoulder briefly to allow faster traffic to overtake. Not mentioned but also obviously if it is OK to use the hard shoulder to allow traffic to overtake would also be OK to undertake. (Provided of course it is safe to do so).

Because I find very few drivers now move over into the hard shouder to allow traffic to pass I have come to the conclusion that driving instructors must be, for whatever reason, teaching their pupils that it is illegal to enter the hard shoulder.

Either they wrongly believe the motorway hard shoulder rules apply to all, or perhaps it is because they would then have to teach their pupils how to change lanes, re-emerge back into traffic. Much simpler to let them carry on in a straight line. Tell them, nope, that lane is for emergency use only, just ignore the line of traffic behind.

Back to the OP

The moment you see a car ahead indicate to go right, you move to the left to allow traffic behind to see their indicator. then carry on, undertake on the left if safe to do so. Even if you must cross dotted yellow lines to do so

Cameron326

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528486#Comment_119528486

Thanks for clarifying!

the_pen_turner

its pritty scary that 2 people that passed a driving test in the last 3 years dont know a very simple and obvious rule . it is literally one of the theory test questions

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528529#Comment_119528529

Not just 2. The OP mentioned that about half a dozen cars that had accumulated behind them followed suit when they finally decided to use the hard shoulder.

the_pen_turner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528569#Comment_119528569

lots of idiots on the road ,the farther back you go thou the more likely they are to think there is something else happening and you cant pass

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528486#Comment_119528486

Well I came to that conclusion because it's not written that you can. Maybe it's obvious to you but to me a driver pulling in to allow others to overtake is not the same as undertaking someone else, especially it's specifically written that you many not drive further on the hard shoulder.

FYI I didnt do my test in Ireland so I'm just going on what is quoted here in the rules, and my interested is just theoretical.

NewClareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119527972#Comment_119527972

Firstly, when held up or stopped on a road I always put on my hazard lights to warn traffic behind me.

Secondly, I would overtake using the hard shoulder, in the circumstances outlined.

However, I don't agree with the interpretation of the above extract from the 'Rules of the Road'. The section on overtaking on the left refers to two lanes of traffic. However, here there is only one lane of traffic and a hard shoulder. Therefore the paragraph does not apply.

Victor

"Today my friend was driving along a one lane national road, speed limit 100km. IE just one lane heading north, and one lane in the opposite direction heading south." - I see this sometimes. This is a two-lane road.

J_R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528745#Comment_119528745

Hi

???

Full Quotes

You may overtake on the left when

1.You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved out and signalled that they intend to turn right.

2.You have signalled that you intend to turn left.

3.Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly but traffic in the left-hand lane is

moving more quickly than the right-hand lane – for example, in slow- moving stop-start traffic.

No mention of lanes in No 1, which I suppose applies here. Only in No 3 which does not apply.

NewClareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528906#Comment_119528906

I don't want to start an argument, but I don't think that the rules, as written, are clear in this area.

Point 1 should reasonably apply to single carriageways, but this is not stated. The hard shoulder situation is not even considered.

No mention of lanes in point 2, but surely they are implied?

If lanes only applied to no 3, I would have expected something along the lines of:

'You are in the left-hand lane of a dual carriageway or motorway.' At the start of No 3. Without such a clause the scope of 'both lanes' is unclear. To me it appears that it applies to the whole section.

I don't mean to be pedantic but driving on the hard shoulder on a motorway is an offence, with penalty point liability. I don't see how use of same for overtaking is covered in the section of the rules quoted. It's all fine, until it's not...

NewClareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528486#Comment_119528486

My understanding is that it is not legal to drive on the hard shoulder unless where it's use is specifically mandated, e.g. diversions during roadworks, under direction of a guard etc. the terms 'pull in' is of itself unclear. I would consider it stopping briefly. Having said this, it appears that penalty points only apply to the hard shoulder on motorways.

When I drove a company car our policy was never to use the hard shoulder. The rationale was that liability was unclear, should an accident occur. A particular concern was traffic joining the road from private entrances. Since then I never drive on them.

J_R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119529594#Comment_119529594

Hi,

Full ROTR re Hard shoulder/Dotted yellow line

A single broken yellow line along the side of the road

This road contains a hard shoulder, which is normally only for pedestrians and cyclists.

If a driver wants to allow a vehicle behind them to overtake, they may pull in to

the hard shoulder briefly (but do not continue driving in the hard shoulder)

as long as no pedestrians or cyclists are already using it and no junctions or entrances are nearby.

Different rules exist for hard shoulders on motorways. See Section 11 for details.

It says "briefly" which means you pull over and continue driving, but exit as soon as possible after the car has overtaken. . As the rules state, it is only for pedestrians and cyclists.

It should not really be necessary to state "Only if safe to do so". Obviously you would watch out for houses, junctions, signs, cyclists, pedestrians, animals etc etc.

NewClareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119529832#Comment_119529832

This illustrates the lack of clarity. A reasonable interpretation of the above is that you pull in and stop, for a brief period. :)

The concern with "Only if safe to do so." Is that many exits to hard shoulders are invisible until you are upon them. Think of vehicles exiting fields, as an example.

Given the level of litigation in this country I prefer to err on the side of caution. What I would like to see is a situation common in rural UK roads. Places to pull in are provided at regular intervals and slow moving vehicles are expected to use them.

cml387

There is no lack of clarity. There is certainly a lack of common sense if you sit behind a car turning right and not use the hard shoulder to pass on the inside.

timmyntc

Its not called undertaking - undertaking is done at a funeral.

'Overtaking on the left' - and it is ok to use a hard shoulder to do it, provided the hard shoulder is clear and the car ahead is indicating to turn right.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528569#Comment_119528569

That's what should have happened.

Anyone behind OP should not have overtaken on the hard shoulder, as OP was not indicating right.

Traffic could have been backed up for any reason.

Never assume last car in queue will put on hazard lights

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119528003#Comment_119528003

One of the most frustrating things that drivers do on the road is pull into the hard shoulder to let traffic pass and then pull right back onto the road in front of you as if they have the right of way. ARRrrrggghh!

So frustrating when they do this.

sdanseo

There is a reason the hard shoulders on national roads are broken yellow lines while on motorways they are solid lines.

Solid line = do not cross (or in emergency only)

Broken line = cross carefully with cause

Anomymous

Iv been told that is actually illegal to the person that said you can move in to hard shoulder to let a vehicle pass you..

Anomymous

In reply to Markious Antonious....

In the first place that car should not be driving on hard shoulder lane and it is dangerous driving on YOUR BEHALF to not let them back in to their proper driving lane... 🙈🙄..

You need to update yourself on Irish rules of the road no harm to you!

Hard shoulder is for emergencies and break downs only or a brief entrance if car infront has indicated to turn right.

Anomymous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119544829#Comment_119544829

Dangerous/ recklous driving on your behalf to not let that car in to it's lane..

What if a pedestrian was walking in hard shoulder???? And u are blocking that car from exiting to the right... OMG

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119538024#Comment_119538024

This pops up on boards all the time, usually said by pompous posters tying to appear smarter than they are. It's absolute codswallop too.

Overtaking on the left is called undertaking. Always has been, it's even in the dictionary:

noun: undertaking

the action of catching up with and passing another vehicle while travelling on the inside.

"the Highway Code discourages undertaking on motorways"

Who are you gonna believe, snooty posters on Boards?.......Or the Cambridge dictionary, Collins dictionary? The OED is paywalled, so cannot link it here.

Buffman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119544870#Comment_119544870

+1 million, there seems to be an issue with people not knowing the difference between solid and broken lines. I notice it a lot also with mandatory and non-mandatory cycle lanes, where on road that's really too narrow for any cycle lane at all, people almost go onto the opposite side of the road to stay out of an empty non-mandatory cycle lane.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121217620#Comment_121217620

Hard shoulders are for emergency vehicles, broken down cars and for access, not a lane for driving.

And even if it was a lane, just because you are "being sound" and letting faster traffic go passed - it doesn't give you the right to just pull out again and cut-off the traffic.

If there is a pedestrian in the hard shoulder and you are driving along it, that is 100% on you if you hit them

Anomymous

I personally know what the rules are for entering the hard shoulder Markous and they are only for emergency stops or to safely pass if you see a car sitting on road turning right... My point WAS that u said its so annoying letting a car ( that should not be there) come back out from hard shoulder to enter in front of u... My point is u should let that clown infront fast so as not to kill someone on hard shoulder cycling etc

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121218468#Comment_121218468

I never said "it's so annoying letting a car come back". I said car's pull back off the hard shoulder as if they have the right of way.

Read it whatever way you want.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121218259#Comment_121218259

You can use the hard shoulder to pull in and let another car pass you. Page 73 of ROTR.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219410#Comment_121219410

What page does it say you can pull back out onto the road and cut off the other traffic? This is the core of my argument, not what the hard shoulder should be used for.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219806#Comment_121219806

In your experience does everybody who use the hard shoulder deliberately pull out in front of you or is it just the odd noob?

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219830#Comment_121219830

There is a road I drive on where cars very often turn out of a side road and use the hard shoulder to speed up to the same speed as the traffic already on the road. 9/10 times they just pull straight out onto the road as if it's their entitlement regardless of if there is a car coming up behind or alongside them. In my experience, this behaviour also plagues those who use the hard shoulder to let traffic pass. While I appreciate them doing this, it does not give them the right to pull right back onto the road again, cutting off my car, just because the hard shoulder is coming to an end or there is a pedestrian.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219935#Comment_121219935

Same people probably cant use a roundabout and probably think theyre entitled to always use the fast lane cause theyre going so fast. Some people blame the flat capped generation for this behaviour but it all pervasive out there

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219935#Comment_121219935

Got it. Your argument is based on a few drivers in your local area and not drivers across the State.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220039#Comment_121220039

So you've never encountered this behaviour then? What do the cars that use the hard shoulder do in your area?

_Kaiser_

This one again..... and the same misconceptions, arguments and just plain wrong statements.

1. When coming up behind a car that is indicating/waiting to turn right, you may (and should) pass them on the left if safe to do so
2. If you are holding up traffic (maybe you're driving a truck or a tractor) it is again perfectly legal and advisable to move into the hard shoulder to allow cars built up behind you to pass. Once these cars have passed you should move back into the lane
3. If on a multi-lane road (let's say the M50/N40) and you are in the left lane or middle lane, it is allowed to pass cars on your right if in slow moving traffic. For those who will argue "what's slow" this means crawling or stop-start traffic, not cars doing 80-100
4. If joining a faster moving lane, you should use the merging lane/hard shoulder to get up to speed and then move into the main lane in a safe manner. Do NOT just pull into the lane at 40/60 km/h less than the traffic already in it. Do NOT pull into it from a standstill.

This isn't that hard. It really is bizarre how many people don't know this. It's mostly common sense!