Westmeath school gets temporary injunction banning a suspended teacher from it's premises

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597129#Comment_119597129

It may be irrelevant to you that all Irish schools have a religious ethos, but many of us think differently.

It certainly is irrelevant to Burke's problem with the law, but his protest is firmly rooted in his belief and his understanding of the religious ethos of the school he worked in. Without such a religious ethos, his protest would have been without fundament. Of course he could have protested, but he couldn't have relied on an interpretation of the school's ethos based on his reading of the bible rather than on the law of the land.

But this has been stated many times and in many ways on this thread, and some posters refuse to countenance any suggestion that the religious ethos has a part to play in all of this.

Cui bono?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597168#Comment_119597168

It did, but what the people who blame the ethos won't answer is: why did Burke agree to take a job when he didn't agree to its ethos? THAT'S what invalidates his position. And if the excuse is he didn't know or didn't understand he should have sought the extra information.

You can blame the ethos, but he still signed up for it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597168#Comment_119597168

It may be irrelevant to you that all Irish schools have a religious ethos

You are arguing a strawman point

It certainly is irrelevant to Burke's problem with the law

Agreed

but his protest is firmly rooted in his belief and his understanding of the religious ethos of the school he worked in. Without such a religious ethos, his protest would have been without fundament. Of course he could have protested, but he couldn't have relied on an interpretation of the school's ethos based on his reading of the bible rather than on the law of the land.

But this has been stated many times and in many ways on this thread, and some posters refuse to countenance any suggestion that the religious ethos has a part to play in all of this.

All irrelevant to the issue at hand

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597074#Comment_119597074

The Presbyterians who are mostly up north, would typically have conservative views and would be anti abortion and so on. As regards that, they fit quite well with the conservatism of Roman Catholicism. Big difference is that they have a fairly austere religiosity compared to the frills of the other side.

For people who think Enoch Burke is a complete head the ball, think for a moment what would happen if the state instructed all national schools to cease preparing children for first communion & confirmation etc. All hell would break loose. In fact, there might be quite a few Catholic bishops down here, saying quietly - good on you Enoch!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597274#Comment_119597274

think for a moment what would happen if the state instructed all national schools to cease preparing children for first communion & confirmation

That would be a great thing. Let the church do that stuff in its own time, not during the school day

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597274#Comment_119597274

there might be quite a few Catholic bishops down here, saying quietly - good on you Enoch!

I suspect that they are more likely to be terrified of the likes of Burke, as he is drawing people's attention in a negative way to the issue of "religion" in schools.

A lot of people are happy enough to go along with religious instruction without any great enthusiasm. In my kids' classes, nobody learned prayers at home, without religion in school the whole thing would have died out by now, except for the occasional enthusiast. People are fine with communion and confirmation as social occasions, but the religious aspect has been lost for most of us.

What the Burke/Wilson's Hospital School issue has done is highlight that there is no real religious basis for religiously-segregated schools any more.

Segregation, which was always carried out on the basis of wealth (for most of us, this is about who goes to the community school/comprehensive, who goes to the Brothers or the Convent, who goes to a fee-paying school and finally who goes to a boarding school; generally correlating to increasing levels of wealth) continues in our society.

The number of CNRs (to use a NI phrase) that attend fee-paying protestant schools has IMO two main aspects. a) It helps keep those schools afloat and b) it is a form of social segregation at the highest level. It's not about religion. To some extent it may be about the UK heritage involved in those schools, but it is undoubtedly about avoiding not just the working class but also about avoiding the catholic middle class.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597129#Comment_119597129

• Stares in Atheist Ireland. Stares in Humanist Association of Ireland. Stares in RC hierarchy. Stares in CoI hierarchy. Stares in 1998 Education Act. Stares in Education Act 2018 (the relevant exception is “A school that aims to promote certain religious values can refuse to admit a student who is not of that religious denomination if it can prove that the refusal is essential to maintain the ethos of the school”.
• It matters. In this contempt case it cannot be brought to bear. It’s unlikely to be able to be brought to bear in disciplinary hearing. Even if in a later case it could be brought to bear it may be declared that the CoI ethos includes what Mr Burke thinks it doesn’t but that will be a declaration of what ethos means not a denial of its existence or its wider relevance.
• The following quote from 2001 may help:

“But it is best to be honest about the character of religious ethos rather than presenting it as a mishmash of well-meaning sentiments.”

From

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/importance-of-school-ethos-not-fully-recognised-1.325661

Why is the country so invested in maintaining denominational education? Why indeed.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119596647#Comment_119596647

94 days for the Rossport 5. I don't think the court of public opinion changed much - their supporters remained loyal, their detractors didn't really seem to care?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597395#Comment_119597395

"I suspect that they are more likely to be terrified of the likes of Burke, as he is drawing people's attention in a negative way to the issue of "religion" in schools."

I dunno - I very much doubt that religious instruction in primary schools down south is going away anytime soon. So no real threat there from the likes of Enoch. But you likely would agree that the Catholic church is conservative too on the whole. I'd reckon there's plenty who quietly admire him. And that's why this current issue is quite interesting. He's painted as a looper by many here on this site but leaving aside how he appears to have gone about it, he's not that far out of line.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597396#Comment_119597396

Irrelevant to the issue at hand. You seem to be struggling with this as much as Enoch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597941#Comment_119597941

You’re not reading posts. Dismissiveness is not thought.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597972#Comment_119597972

Doesn't change the fact that none of the religious stuff is relevant to the issue at hand 🤷‍♂️

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597452#Comment_119597452

The family operate like a cult so looper or brainwashed since he was born is an accurate summation. In terms of those who are silently agreeing. It's not anything close to a silent majority so it's pretty irrelevant.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597972#Comment_119597972

That's got to be one of the most hypocritical posts I've read on here for a while....

FoxForce5

Pressure will come on school to lift injunction, he will walk free before midterm.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598779#Comment_119598779

From who? Parents likely don't want him showing up..

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598779#Comment_119598779

From jail, maybe

They don't have to lift the injuction. Why would they?

I can't see how he can go back there (or why he'd want to) when he's lost the confidence of the faculty and probably the students.

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598890#Comment_119598890

He'll definitely have lost the confidence of the principal, possibly the faculty but beyond one student I don't know how you can say probably the student.

The students could just easily see him as a hero sticking it to the principal.

When I was in school if someone declared their intentions to transition and wanted to be known by a name of the opposite gender they'd probably have been ridiculed by the majority of other students. doubt they'd have lost confidence in a teacher supporting their view.

Maybe things have changed but students always picked on anyone who was different but maybe they're all supportive of differences now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599025#Comment_119599025

Students have changed a lot since when you were in school. Eg homophobia was pretty commonly on display when I was in school about fifteen years ago. It would have drastically dropped off since then thankfully.

Students apparently walked out when he took his "stand" against the principal.

The picking on different students does still happen but teens are far more progressive than they've ever been. So a religious fundamentalist is not gonna be viewed as a hero.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599025#Comment_119599025

A large number of them apparently walked out of the service which he stood up and started ranting and raving.

And, interestingly, students tend to not take it kindly if they notice a teacher is picking on one particular student, which is exactly what is happening here.

Wanderer78

ah hes fcuked folks, he ll never teach again in ireland, i suspect he may in fact now be unemployable, what employer would want to be dealing with that, shur best of luck to him in spreading his nonsense!

mohawk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599025#Comment_119599025

It’s very difficult to gauge how students actually feel on the issue because any who disagree with certain viewpoints need to keep quiet. I do think there is a wide variety of opinions and plenty in the middle who couldn’t care less

I know a couple girls going to a secondary school nearby with a transgirl in their year. The school uniform policy is quite strict and girls are not allowed to wear leggings to school, must be trousers. In PE they are not allowed wear crop tops. Some of girls are quite resentful that there is an exception to those rules for one student. Other girls have been sent home for wearing leggings as it’s against the uniform policy. They think they run the risk of getting in trouble for bullying or transphobia if they say anything about how there are different rules for some. The girls I know were saying they keep as far away from the other kid as possible so they don’t risk saying or doing the wrong thing. The kid does have their friend group so obviously there are plenty of others who feel differently.

One thing is for sure with teenagers is that fitting in is something very important to them so most will try to go with what is seen to be the majority viewpoint amongst the peer group.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599025#Comment_119599025

Students tend to be more liberal and supportive of their peers these days and definitely less religious. They're unlikely to side with a conservative bigoted teacher.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598638#Comment_119598638

You have had to be corrected several times already in this thread. It doesn’t seem to register with you that you just blunder in to a complex area with deep rooted and entirely misplaced confidence. It’s very obvious that you don’t understand the wider issue at all. That’s fine. But turn off the attempted abuse.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599166#Comment_119599166

There is nothing complex about this case.

You’re making it about pronouns when the fact is he ignored a court order to stay away from school while a disciplinary process was ongoing, which was caused by him harassing the principal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599189#Comment_119599189

You obviously haven’t read my posts. Why am I not surprised.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599166#Comment_119599166

You never corrected anything. You just said "reread the post" three times, giving me nothing to respond to. You did the same with DaCod and with Faugheen.

If people can respectfully counter the post, they respectfully counter the post. If they can't, they go with "reread the post" or "you're not reading the post" or "it's pretty obvious you don't understand" or some condescending bullshit.

Other hidden option 3 - they're not reading the posts they're replying to. This was my guess based on the information you gave, hence the accusation of a hypocritical post.

Case in point: this will be replied to with a veiled insult. And if I don't reposnd, this will be the reason.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599213#Comment_119599213

You are obviously not on the same thread as I am.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599102#Comment_119599102

Secretary of Stare for Education if Trump gets elected.

freshpopcorn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599025#Comment_119599025

I'm out of school over a decade and if we had a teacher like Enoch lots of the lads would say they odd homopobic word however around Enoch we'd have being very touchy feely with one another to wind him up.

We did have a few gay guys one evening moved his boyfriend to the school and nobody really cared. We had a gay week and David Norris called. Now they might have being the odd word said here and there but if a teacher acted like Mr Burke he'd have being an outcast.

I don't think he'd go down well with the girls/women either given the family general views.

I could think of think of two guys who'd have supported him. A guy who was fine but he was from a religious family.

Another guy had a very homphobic dad and he was uncomfortable regarding LGBT subjects.

They are more over liberal young people but even those who'd say the odd slur word, they mightn't have the prode flag out but they'd fine with LGBT people.