Is WHS fit for purpose

Rikand

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649881#Comment_119649881

Pretty sure prawn is just playing devils advocate.

And trying to keep himself out of a lawsuit lol.

On a related note, I wonder if a handicap secretary deletes a score from someone's record, can golf ireland still see the deleted record. Like on an administrator level.

Just incase someone did have scores of 100+ on their record that were removed

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649767#Comment_119649767

54 is highest handicap index. Playing handicap can be higher depending on slope rating. A 133 slope would give you a 61 PH. Personally I think that HIs should have been capped at a max of 54 PH, but I accept that it would be difficult to do this in practice.

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119650062#Comment_119650062

I've had to do this with GP rounds that weren't properly registered in the club. And in most (if not all) cases, it would have resulted in a higher index, so I've had to make an adjustment to bring the HI back to where it should be. It's really messy and I hate doing it, but I can't have unsanctioned GP rounds sitting on records.

But in answer to your question, I don't know, but suspect that there is an audit trail.

FixdePitchmark

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649832#Comment_119649832

lol - WHS is amazing - every time you think you seen it all - a classic like this pops up.

Again - 61 - is a person who can't play golf - the guy in 2nd could have had the round of his life - and to lose to that would be slickening.

billy3sheets

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649741#Comment_119649741

I'm familiar with this particular one. Was a visitor from a European country who produced evidence of Handicap Index in an open competition. An exception.

Benicetomonty

Not fit for purpose. Low guys are getting totally screwed. Low-mid handicappers who are trying are getting screwed. A number of high handicappers I've played with seem genuinely embarrassed at how high their indexes are after a few bad rounds. The casual golf allowance makes cheating, up or down, ridiculously easy, not to mention affordable.

CONGU wasn't perfect but it was infinitely better than this. Medals in my place are being won with stupid scores over the last 2 years - the idea of strokes off the tips levelling things out no longer seems to apply thanks to WHS.

kippy

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119666958#Comment_119666958

The cheaters have to be punished - the same as with any other system that relies on the honesty/goodwill of those that are using it.

If you don't punish the cheaters there's always gonna be those that have a thick enough neck to cheat.

Seve OB

No

i think cheater is to strong a word. nobody is technically cheating anyone only themselves

handicap manipulation

boardise

Does anyone know how scores in fourballs are dealt with in regard to handicap adjustments ?

kippy

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667297#Comment_119667297

This is half the problem - we are too "forgiving" - its full on cheating.

They are cheating themselves, their club mates etc etc

The same as any other type of cheating that happens out on the course.

callaway92

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667337#Comment_119667337

They don't count towards the system and I agree that they shouldn't

You start taking on shots that you generally wouldn't bother with in a singles comp, and likewise, you might half-arse some things if you know your teammate is gonna be in for a good score etc.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667403#Comment_119667403

Any competition win should result in a cut now. 99.9pc of the people who are winning fourballs and team events generally are playing off a hc that is laughably unreflective of their ability, judging by the scores we are seeing.

If a guy/lady wins a fourball on his/her own and his/he tteam mate is upset at getting cut because he feels it's unwarranted, (s)he can simply not play with him/her the next time.

Way way too much enabling in all of this, or so it seems to me.

Seve OB

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667343#Comment_119667343

But it’s not the same as other type of cheating. Marking wrong score, “finding” their ball, not counting shots, breaking rules etc. that’s cheating.

Russman

Yes

But the vast majority of these guys aren't actually cheating, the system is just designed so that the movements (both up and down) in someone's index are far, far greater than under CONGU. With the index being an average of best 8, chances are they've already beaten their handicap in probably half of those counting rounds anyway. Its not like under CONGU where playing to your handicap was considered a "good" score. IMO 36pts is not nearly the achievement it was under CONGU, and if that's the case, it kind of makes sense that 40pts isn't either ? I don't doubt there are messers out there, but I think we're still looking at it through CONGU tinted glasses IMHO, and with a "winners must be punished/rewarded with a cut" viewpoint.

I mean, under CONGU if you were 3 shots outside your buffer or 23 shots outside it, it was the same outcome, just a 0.1. Logically that doesn't really make much sense when you think about it. Someone who can't get near their handicap and someone who's fairly close to playing to it should be dealt with differently, no ?

kippy

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667909#Comment_119667909

It's the exact same. It has the exact same effect if not worse tbh. You don't see threads like this or others on WHS on those other aspects of in game cheating.

Rikand

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667909#Comment_119667909

Deliberately playing shite with the intention of increasing your handicap so you can win big competitions is cheating your fellow honest hard working club mates out of prizes that THEY richly deserve, not the cheater.

Sadly, however, Golf is a game of honour. If people decide to cheat, there is no way of stopping them.

blue note

Yes

To me it's white collar crime of golf. It doesn't feel as bad compared to someone pretending their first attempt to get the ball out of the rough was a practice swing, but in reality that's cheating by improving your score by 1. If someone intentionally sandbags rounds so that they've extra shots on their handicap it's cheating by a number as well. It could easily be cheating by improving their score by 3 or 4.

FixdePitchmark

No

The thing about golf is - that people know golf. If your in golf circles and you are doing something dodge on a course , rough , bunkers, marking ball and gaining an inch. People are not stupid - they see it and know what you are at. Because they know this game as well as you. If you think they don't - you are the fool.

Was told the other day - that a good few guys try win back their annual sub - that is their goal for the year.

Anyway - I think if your cheating at golf - you are probably are cheating at other things - and it eventually catches up with you. But maybe I'm wrong there.

finglashoop

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670003#Comment_119670003

I think your last paragraph is accurate.

A decent lad doesnt only cheat at golf. Its his personalty. As said above its a game of honour, and self policing.

Lefty2Guns

Yes

Just to throw this out there. Fella's that register for a competition but don't submit their cards as they had a poor round. Would people consider that cheating?

finglashoop

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670383#Comment_119670383

Usually they are keeping handicap down not up arent they so if anything only putting themselves at a disadvantage

Not sure how whs deals with that tbh

newport2

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670383#Comment_119670383

Why would anyone do that after a poor round? The system will just give them a net double-bogey on every holes anyway, wouldn't it?

PARlance

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670450#Comment_119670450

Not if the card wasn't returned afaik. If the card isn't returned it's an old fashioned 0.1 I think.

Maybe a 0.1 would be better than entering a poor card for them if their goal was to keep their HC as low as possible. I imagine it's a tiny tiny percentage of golfers but some low guys try to keep/get as low as possible so they qualify for prestigious amateur competitions.

DiegoWorst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670653#Comment_119670653

I have seen two things happen for a non-return, depending on the golf club.

The score is posted to Golf Ireland with 18 x nett double bogeys, or the score is not posted at all.

As far as I know, the rules of handicapping recommend that a penalty score be recorded for a non-return.

PARlance

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670686#Comment_119670686

It seems that the guidance is that there should be a penalty but that penalty is left to the discretion of the club so?

spacecoyote

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670719#Comment_119670719

Pretty sure there are 2 options open to the club, a penalty up or down.

So if they believe someone is NR to get their handicap up, they cam actually apply a good score and give a reduction.

Or if they believe someone is trying to maintain a low handicap they can apply the net double to every hole as outlined above

blue note

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670383#Comment_119670383

It depends. If he is keeping his handicap artificially low to qualify for comps (elite amateur comps for example) then yes I would. You need to be of a certain standard to qualify for them. If you're only of that standard because you're not being honest with your scores (by not returning the bad ones), then to me that's cheating.

If it's an ego thing and he's maintaining a 20 handicap because he'd be embarrassed by a 22, then that's stupid but not cheating. And it's wrong, you have to follow the rules including those relating to returning cards.

PARlance

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670814#Comment_119670814

I must ask around but I'm nearly sure our club sent out communication earlier this year about there being an automatic 0.1 for a NR.

newport2

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670653#Comment_119670653

Just checked a few comps at my club and it looks like they apply the net double bogey to each hole. (A few guys in last weekends comp have 0 points in HowdidIdo with no scores entered. They have net double bogies on every hole in Golf Ireland)

Interesting that it's at the discretion of the club though.

paulos53

The penalty scores in my club seem to be a score that would produce a score differential as close as possible to the player's handicap index. This would be in the players top 8 scores and is likely to produce a small cut.

I assume that this is an automated option with the handicap system