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Young people and emigration: The elephant in the room

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I noticed you didn’t answer the question. Traditionally it is the poor that emigrated out of Ireland so unless you can back up with new figures saying it is now the middle class I don’t see why that has changed.

    yes I travelled a lot including 3rd world countries hence I know we are not 3rd world standards for healthcare nor housing. Was working in the central bank of a South American country which had raw sewage running under the floorboards. That is 3rd world level stuff not you have to wait in a watertight hospital in a corridor. I am not saying Ireland gets things right but it is nowhere near as bad as you made up. We are a small country we don’t have many natural resources on par with many countries. Economies of scale apply along with history. We never had an empire or the wealth of one to compete at that level so of course some other countries have a better infrastructure having much of it built before we were a country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    It is due to our building and planning laws no other reasons



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,959 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    There's a few people doing the van life in Ireland. But its hard because we have few facilities and certain groups abuse them. So van's and campers are often barred from lots of places, campers would normally use. The country is too small for that anyway. In the States or such space/land isn't an issue in the same way. They aren't trying to cram into tiny car parks designed for 1970s sized cars.



  • Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sure you see all these log cabins / small modular homes advertised online and in papers. People are having to live in those and even rent them out on daft.

    Any decent sized town in Ireland now you are talking over 1500 to rent a 3 bed semi and no real tax benefit in paying rent.

    Maybe during the financial crash a bit of long term planning would have kept house building going especially considering the young demographic in Ireland at that time that were going to need family housing. Then again politicians aren’t rewarded for long term planning



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Except, you didn't manage to counter my claim that people could have a better standard of living in these other countries... all you've done is talk about issues that China has. And no, living and working in China does not mean that you support their governments policy on concentration camps, no more than living in the US means that you support their use of torture, or their wars abroad. You keep introducing elements that have no relationship to the original point..

    It is easily possible to have a higher standard of living in other countries than Ireland, such as Japan, or even China.. which were two examples I used, but there are plenty of other countries where it's perfectly doable.

    How is your pension looking?

    Solid actually. I've been paying into a private pension for the last 24 years. How's yours? 🙄



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,239 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    The wages are better in those cities compared to ours.


    There are more levels you can go up in companies etc. My cousin was working in financial services here. And there were literally only two levels where she was working. And not a great difference in pay. She moved to London there are multiple levels and positions and there is an increasing pay scale that you have more mobility and access to.


    The truth is there are lots of low level jobs here but going up a pay grade you have to wait for people to leave. There is more opportunity in bigger cities and better wages.


    Im not saying all employers bend rules. But many want people to work 10 months of the year and work they to death and lay them off for two months. Only to take back the EXACT same people after the two months but like they are starting from scratch again in the same company. It must be very demoralizing to feel you are always an apprentice.


    But also people with PHDS etc are on like 28k or 38k in tech and IT. Its nuts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    I think we have 5 years to stop climate change, before it becomes unstoppable, there should be a law every new house must have a solar panel on it, in 2040 parts of Ireland could be under water I think if you have tech skills you could buy a house in a small town and work from home i think house prices in Australia are similar to Irish prices I kmow people who live in a small town happy to live there 60 minutes from Dublin by car I see no sign of a big wave of emigration

    I was not aware people live here just so they can go to soccer matchs in the uk

    The hse is not perfect but I hear of people in America being charged obscene amounts for basic medical procedures people stay in crap jobs just because they have medical insurance

    I don't know if an Irish person can work in France Germany most EU countrys if they only speak English unless they have high level skills like programming website design



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I did you just didn't pay attention. While living in China you do not have freedom to say what you want or be what you want via religion or sexuality. That is a restriction you are willing to put up with where I say that is a lower standard of living. Not that it would effect me directly but that it a standard you wouldn't accept here. You may thinking it is fine people have to hide things I don't but by not caring you are supporting it by saying just keep quite and you will be alright. It is a surveillance state. You are a second class citizen there. The property market in China is way more broken than ours and will collapse in a way we never could. You are saying there is a better standard of living in China I am just pointing out it is only better if you accept massive injustices in their society just because it doesn't effect you. That is living off the backs of people.

    Not anything like political policies of the USA. I don't live in the USA because of the massive inequity that society has. I lived there and came back to Ireland. When you go into your favourite bar to find the bar owner has to do a a go fund me for life saving surgery and in the end they end up selling everything they had to get treatment you find it disgusting. Their labour laws are terrible and as that is part of standards of living it is better here

    I have not brought in new points since the original post. You are saying there is a better standard of living in countries and I am pointing out how it rests on mistreatment.

    Your 24 year pension investment has to be less than a pension plan from here as you are paid less in those countries. You may be able to retire in some cheap country if they exist then and let you live there. I can retire in Ireland and may choose to live in a cheaper country to live off the economic difference.

    How do you feel about Irish landlords? Are they profiting off the backs of working people?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,870 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Second world? We rely on busses far too much for transport. It means that commute times are horrible. And because the busses are ****, we have the worst traffic congestion in europe. Our traffic is worse than L.A, a place famous for how bad it's traffic is.

    Our housing is a disgrace. Not only is there a shortage but it's overpriced. But our plans for housing involve more housing estates, which mean more spread out sprawl and more traffic. And it's not affordably by people in lower paid jobs.

    Let's not talk about renting.

    Our healthcare system is falling apart. Huge wait times for everything from emergencies to treatments/testing.

    Education is good. Not the best in the world but definitely above adequate. Except for the portacabins used as classrooms, a shortage of teachers & SNA's and the fact that third level students can't afford to live within 100 miles of the college.


    But really, the best reason to move is the housing crises. It's so incredibly hard to get on the housing ladder and there's no alternative because resting is so precarious and so expensive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    People are emigrating because renting is culturally alien to us and looked down on, making people who rent or are facing rent feel like they have failed in life. Until that changes in attitudes of property as a mark of respect and success than renters like me will see ourselves as life failures and have mental health issues as a result, and vote for parties we feel may hit the rich where it hurts and smash the system



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  • Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    More ranting. There is nothing wrong with using buses for transport within cities every city with a metro use them too. If you have actual stats on LA compared to Dublin show them because our public transport is way better than there is my view. There are more dedicated us routes coming.

    Our healthcare system is better than the USA due to prices and availability to people. We will never have the NHS due to the size of our country and economics of scale.

    Education in Ireland is certainly a better option here than the USA due again to price and availability. I know people in their 50s still paying off student loans in the US. There students don't go to college because they can afford the college let alone a place to live

    Go leave and find a country where housing is so much cheaper and doesn't have a housing/property issue. You can discount USA,China, Australia, Canada, UK, Germany etc... and tell us which country you think it is better. You really should also consider if the same applies to the locals or if what you obtained in Ireland allows you to jump over the locals.

    Those who want to go should leave but with their eyes open.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 121 ✭✭dtothebtotheh


    Yeah, and I was on 26,000 euro a year. Unable to afford a house. House prices are cheaper in Melbourne, rent is far more affordable, 2 bed apartment is $1400 a month (close to city), so that's 950 euro. What could I get for that in Dublin??????



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 121 ✭✭dtothebtotheh


    2 Bedroom modern house 20km west of Melbourne $370-400K ( or 250-270 Euro).


    Not sure where you are getting your figures from.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,870 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    I don't know why you're trying to say the Ireland is better than the US. It is/ In healthcare, education, quality of life, everything.

    I just pointed out that Irelands, and in particular Dublins, traffic congestion is horrendous. I mentioned LA because it's famous for it's congestion. In the story below it says that people in LA spend about half as much time queuing in traffic.


    We're third worse in the world. And it affects busses because busses are traffic. Sure there's bus lanes but they're not everywhere.


    BTW, I left Ireland last year. I got offered a job in Germany. I now live in the very centre of a large city in North Rhine Westphalia. I pay 1100 a month for an apartment that's nearly 100m2. There's amazing transport here, although I'm missing the 9 euro ticket. I have trams, busses and a uBahn. The DB trains are unreliable but I don't use them unless I'm leaving the city. People in NRW complain about the price of accommodation in this city (all the other cities are far cheaper) but then I show them Ireland. I have some coworkers from Berlin visiting this week and they said berlin was bad. I showed them how bad it is in Dublin and they all agreed it's far worse in Ireland. Sure it's harder than it was to get an apt in Berlin, but the prices are no-where near Dublins and the queues aren't as bad.

    So yeah, life in Germany is great. I'm on slightly more money, but taxed a bit higher. I have a great apartment, friends come to visit all the time. All in all, it was a great decision.

    I'd move back to Ireland, but for the price I'm paying here I couldn't rent in Dublin. I'd move into a tiny bedsit or have to share an apartment. And despite having a sizeable deposit, I'd probably end up having to buy a tiny place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,870 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    I moved to Dusseldorf. Wonderful city.

    I started a new job here last september, so I've been here just over a year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭donaghs


    How hard is it to understand that people are emigrating (going out) in increasing numbers, but simultaneously we have record levels of immigration (coming in) which shows no signs of slowing down. More people still want to come here than want to leave - but that doesn’t mean we should ignore the voices of Irish people who feel there is no future for them in Ireland.

    All the stats I can see show the “birth rate” falling year on year. But this is reducing population though due to the high immigration numbers . Possibly a rising population has lead to an increase in the number of births, but not the “birth rate”.



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I did you just didn't pay attention. While living in China you do not have freedom to say what you want or be what you want via religion or sexuality. 

    People have some really linear ideas about China. Just because at certain periods, or under particular leaderships, things were banned, doesn't mean that those same policies are enforced now. Homosexuality is mostly ignored, and you'll find openly gay couples (both male/female) all over the country. The city I lived in had three Catholic churches, and maybe 5 Mosques. You can practice your religion, you just can't seek to convert/preach to others. You don't have the freedom to be critical of the government, but that's not really an issue as you don't have to live your life as a boards CA user.

    There are periods when the CCP or local governments crack down on particular things, people put their heads down for a while, and then, things go back to normal when the Party thinks they've proven their point. That they're in control. It's quite rare for things to get serious, and that tends to only happen in the primary cities like Beijing or Shanghai.. and even then, they're the most "open" of all the cities in China. In 12 years living in Xi'an, there was not one such crackdown, except for the Churches being closed for a period of three months during some argument between the CCP and Rome, but then, everything went back to normal again.

    That is a restriction you are willing to put up with where I say that is a lower standard of living.

    Sure.. that's your pov. However, I've been both actively bisexual, and a practicing Christian in China without any problems.. and not being able to bitch about the government doesn't bother me. I wouldn't consider the inability (without consequences) to complain about the government of a foreign nation, while living in that nation to be a measure for a standard of living. You do. Fine. However, I suspect many others don't.

    You are saying there is a better standard of living in China I am just pointing out it is only better if you accept massive injustices in their society just because it doesn't effect you. That is living off the backs of people.

    I said people could have a better standard. I certainly did.. but not everyone went the same way I did, in that, others view it a something to do for a year or two, and not be serious about what they're doing.

    No, it is accepting that there are different classes, or levels of position in all societies.. It's no different to living in any other country, which has differences between the rich, the well-off, the comfortable, etc. When living in America, you're not caring about the injustices that happen, no more than you care about the injustices committed by France in Africa. The simple fact is that nowhere is perfect, and if you were to apply your logic in a balanced fashion, without hedging, you'd never go anywhere. Which is fine if that's the way you want to live.. but I'd like to experience more of the world than Ireland.

    Which ties into the standard of living in that by living elsewhere, you experience far more than you can in a country like Ireland, with a population like Ireland, in a culture like Ireland... Not slagging Ireland, btw. Just saying there's more to the world and living, than staying here. I lived in a city of 9 million people.. which is freaking awesome experience for the sheer choice and variety available. I'd view that as a wonderful boost in terms of a standard of living.

    Your 24 year pension investment has to be less than a pension plan from here as you are paid less in those countries.

    You don't have a clue. I'm paid now quite similar to a lecturer in Ireland, except that in Asia my accommodation is paid by the University. Yup. No rent to pay, which means more disposable income (in addition to the lower cost of living). In the past, when I worked in Finance abroad (before I got into teaching), I earned more than what I would have earned here, due to the competition and better benefits designed to attract skilled professionals. Some loss in currency conversions and bank transfers, but generally speaking I've been paid consistently more abroad than I would have been paid here for similar positions, and considering the limitations of the population (and available positions in my field), I had more opportunities for advancement. Oh, and generally speaking, employment related taxation also tends to be lower in many of the countries I've worked in, and the pension amounts taken from your salaries are paid in a lump sum when you leave the country. In many cases, employers are given incentives to help with the pension transfer process by the government, so you get what the company allocated to the private fund, in addition to the government reserved amounts.

    You didn't pay attention to what I said earlier. In Asia, at least, you're dealing with their perception of Westerner, which means that they consider your education to be better than theirs, that your experience is more varied, and the added desire that they have some foreigners on their teams for PR purposes. All of that translates into opportunities for very good positions which pay well, and generally have a host of added benefits.

    But look, I get it. You're a homebody, and you don't consider living abroad to be of value. Whereas, I believe that living abroad for a decade or more can be of immense value to someone both for the experiences gained, and the monetary benefits available if you do your research properly.



  • Posts: 2,814 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This again.

    1. Can you point to the hard data confirming that Irish people are emigrating in increasing numbers? I haven’t seen one shred of evidence apart from the whining on this thread. Nobody is saying this concern should be ignored, that’s assuming it actually exists.
    2. I’ve explained this to you before. I understand the distinction between the crude birth rate and the fertility rate. Do you? The crude birth rate increased 16% YoY in QR1 of 2022. The fertility rate also increased stat-sig. Read the CSO report.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,464 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    How do you find Germany, language-wise? It'd be the main thing putting me off moving to the continent. I got contacted by a hospital in the US on LinkedIn once but I've no interest in the US and Ireland and the Netherlands are the only EU countries where only speaking English isn't a problem.

    My skillset might be viable in Baden-Wuttemberg but again, English...

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,691 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Lol, I'm "getting my figures" from the Australian government document that's linked in my post.

    Sums up this thread perfectly. Facts and data don't matter when people just "know".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭maninasia



    Interesting comment.

    I lived overseas for a long period but visited less due to living in Asia.

    As I viisted less I got to see snapshots of change.

    I would say that family and friends didn't change a whole lot but the country has changded and Dublin has changed tremendously, and that has been difficult to asjust to in some ways as I would say Dublin is worse than it used to be in terms of being super crowded ,dirty, expensive , impersonal and while having massive amounts of foreigners having a surprising lack of ethnic food or interesting ethnic districts Dublin is a huge disappointment these days. Anyway...I digress.


    Areas outside of Dublin still offer good value and very good quality of life.

    I find native Irish people generally still very friendly but busy as the world gets busier.

    There are many innovative companies in Ireland now it isnt such a creative wasteland.


    Also my family is diverse but we didn't experience any racism yet, thats really a big plus for modern Ireland.


    Politics in Ireland is a competition to see who can tax more and spend more and to me it's crazy they want to add even more taxes and not even one party is talking about really reducing taxes. I don't like that Ireland has never developed a spectrum of choice between right of center and left of center parties, theres almost no real choice. I find many Irish to be conceited in that they think we have a great neutral independent country but we don2t even invest to have a functional air force for defense and rely on the UK. That is a bad joke!


    Lack of investment in community sports abd leisure facilities and swimming pools is also very frustrating.


    I find it difficult to move back because the high taxes and cost of living more than anything though, I will be honest. High earners get absolutely shafted, and most Irish people seem to think thats normal althpugh ypu go put and work a 12 hpur day...but then you need to pay 52% tax? Meanwhile somebody can pop out a kid abd apply for free everything and do nothing.


    The second factor is the tough climate for at least half the year. Hard to adjust back to that if you have been living in hotter climes (this Summer was great though).

    I also found that there aren't that many high paid jobs in Ireland, with pay rates similar outside of IT with rates back in 2008, and yes the prevalence of temp contracts is really not good at all. Where I worked in Asia the number of temp contracts was much less due to automatic permanency after six months and the employment Law is actually much stronger in that regard. Working temp contracts seems to be common even for older people in finance, I was blow away by that

    Evcen though we would miss family and friends we are thinking of leaving again because the money we save and the general lifestyle we enjoy are far better back in Asia. Maybe keep Ireland for the Summers ☀️.

    Just some thoughts from somebody who left and came back . The longer you leave the harder it may be to return as you get used to different ways of seeing and doling things.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,091 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Not to mention the health effects of living in a small space like a van for extended periods of time. A US style trailer park would be a possible solution, but it's too closely identified with 'halting site' to be acceptable to many.

    People opting to live in glorified boxes in back gardens is especially sad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,091 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    No, people are emigrating because we can't rent for anything like a sane amount and have security of tenure!

    The younger, urban generation here have less of the land-ownership mania that previous generations had. Given the choice, they would be quite happy to rent, but stupid rents are pushing them towards ownership (if they can afford it), staying with the parents (not a good or healthy situation for either party) or overseas.

    Post edited by whisky_galore on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭maninasia


    I also lived in Asia for years and find many Irish people have little clue about how developed it is and how you can also have very good salaries and benefits there but less taxes and lower living costs.

    Even a city like Bangkok has changed tremendously and become very modern , but all over the region it is a similar story. NOMINAL pay in many Asian countries are higher than European countries never mind after taxes. It is just Ireland has high salaries but then you get dinged with massive taxes here so saving is much harder. My rent was 1/3 of Ireland and also electricity is 1/3 Ireland and fuel cost 1/2 Ireland (because a large part of those costs in Ireland are govt taxes and duties ).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I have lived outside of Ireland and I paid attention. You have chosen to ignore injustices because you live a good life. Would you accept these restrictions in Ireland? You are also very selective of what is and has happened in China. You think I am being "linear" in my thoughts on a the fact Muslim people are currently in a concentration camp. You can't just ignore it because YOU think it is only sometimes they do this stuff.

    You really should look up the Chinese property issues. There are huge ghost cities with crumbling, incomplete badly constructed buildings which are used to keep the economy going. It is all on the verge of collapse in a way that is nothing like our housing crisis.

    You admit you are in a privileged situation just by being a westerner and therfore ridding on the backs of those mistreated. You are fine with that which is your choice but anyone is entitled to judge you for your choice.

    It isn't a home bird thing I see value in many countries as places to live just what you have picked I find morally bankrupt. You can argue all you like about other countries but you chose a country with a direct connection to abuse. The same as people who move to Dubai and ignore that slavery was used to build where you live.

    Your choice but you can not get away from the facts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer



    Sorry are you saying the USA ranks higher than Ireland for healthcare, education and quality of life? If you are you are way off

    You should look up the report from your link because Dublin isn't the 3rd worst city for congestion now. Not even in the top 10

    Great you like Germany. Do you know how they got to a stage where they have so much rental property and rules? First you kill a huge portion of the population, seize property and then get free money to build residential rental property. Then it is easy to keep going. When this was happening Ireland relied on agriculture for 90% of our economy and we were in poverty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    USA is a bad example - how good your services are depend on how much you can and are willing to pay.

    You want to compare Ireland's healthcare? Try comparing it to Germany where your health insurance covers GP visits, subsidised perscriptions, refeals to specialists such as psychotherapists and so forth.

    Try comparing infrastructure - commute times in Berlin compared to Dublin. How much does it cost to get a night bus home at 1am on a Tuesday morning and how frequently are they?

    Try comparing rents - how much is an average 50sqm one room apartment in Dublin compared to a city of the same size in Germany?

    Try comparing prices - how much as a pint of beer in an average Dublin bar or supermarket compared to Berlin, or Hamburg or pick a German city of your choice.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I wasn't doing the comparing they were. You can't talk about going to the USA and living there and talk about how the German healthcare system as you don't have access to it.

    By all standards I would expect Germany beats Ireland but with economies of scale and huge industry that is to be expected. Ireland by no means is the best but people naming places better than Ireland while ignoring the negatives will be called out. Health insurance in the USA run at least €1k a month. My nephews ended up in hospital for a week in NY. The bill was $120k each after health insurance it cost $10k each. That would break many people in the USA but many wouldn't have the insurance in the first place.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Fair enough, but if comparing to Germany is unfair because of size, then compairing it to the US is....?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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