How do bad tradespeople stay in business?

Kaisr Sose · 11-09-2022 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602813#Comment_119602813

What I do t get is reports of how hard working the Irish are when they are 'foreigners'

Eastern Europeans seem way ahead of them here at home.

AndrewJRenko · 11-09-2022 8:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119600470#Comment_119600470

Or we could just tell people to ask their friends and family for recommendations whenever they want a tradesperson.

corner of hells · 11-09-2022 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604773#Comment_119604773

What I'm puzzled about is about how we managed for years before all these foreigners arrived here.

I can't remember loads of buildings collapsing, electrical fires , gas explosions, cars falling apart through shoddy work because of poor Irish workmanship.

Kaisr Sose · 11-09-2022 9:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604926#Comment_119604926

Sorry, I am not saying they are not competent etc.

What I am getting at is the quality of finish (decorative) they think is OK. Others here have said they were poor workers, lazy, late arriving for etc.

Potential-Monke · 11-09-2022 11:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119601940#Comment_119601940

I don't ask for cash quotes and if they're not willing to give a receipt I won't hire them. What leg would you have to stand on if there was no receipt? And your post seems to indicate that you're a proponent of cash sales, avoiding the exchequer and assisting in tax fraud?*

(*semi-serious here btw, playing devils advocate mainly)

dotsman · 12-09-2022 12:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604826#Comment_119604826

Doesn't work. As per my first post on the thread, this can work in small towns/villages. But not in large urban areas, especially Dublin. A lot of friends and family live in different areas. But, even when they do, it still doesn't guarantee anything. In my own case, I had a plumber once, who had been recommended to me who did a good job. Based on that, I recommended him to my sister when she was looking for one. Fortunately, she never went with him because about 6 months later I asked him to come out and fix a thermostat on my boiler. He subbed it to a crook, who not only claimed that it had caused the pump to break (working fine before he arrived), but subsequently charged me €600 for a negative head pump (on top of the thermostat, labour and callout charge), but installed a second-hand positive head one (less than €200 new).

Neither the original plumber (who I had the agreement with), nor the subcontractor wanted to know anything about it.

I eventually had to get another plumber in (also recommended to me) to install a positive head one (another €600 in parts + labour).

About 2 years later when that pump went, and I had to get a pump repair specialist in who confirmed to me that even that pump had been second-hand and about 15 years old. He also mentioned it is a very common practice with cowboy plumbers (his company fixes tonnes of pumps for plumbers - the plumbers tell the customers it's beyond repair and they need a new one; and then take the old one and get it repaired for a fraction of the cost and subsequently install it in the next unsuspecting customer).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604019#Comment_119604019

As per above example. To show that all parts are new, cost what the tradesmen said they would and are of the quality/make/brand etc that was in the original quote/agreement.

Ginger83 · 12-09-2022 12:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058262808/how-do-bad-tradespeople-stay-in-business

The main reason that they stay in business is because they just move on to other unsuspecting customers. Fleece, rinse and repeat.

We had an extension built for disabled use by a building contractor approved by the council for grant work. It was an absolute nightmare which left a disabled person sleeping on the sofa. Builder didn't want to know and council didn't want to know. We were going to consider going legal but builder knew the person wouldn't see court.

Advised to contact building control who are part of the council. The onus is on the home owner to comply with building regulations which there were multiple breaches of. Building Control said that they were obliged to prosecute us so we said come ahead we'll have the kettle on. The following few days they got in touch to say it would be unpalatable to all concerned to prosecute. We said we didn't mind. They had found out that they had paid for the work. The grant was approved immediately again and we were put in a hotel for two months at the council's expense.

It was all brushed under the carpet like it never happened. We went public and the builder stated that they were absolutely satisfied all work was done to their usual high standard and in compliance with all regulations even though nothing complied with minimum building regulations. We put a review up online which was removed. I don't think Ireland will ever be able to regulate Construction because there is no law. There may be regulations but they appear to be mere guidelines.

the_pen_turner · 12-09-2022 12:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605842#Comment_119605842

how does a receipt prove that the materials fitted are new or the quality specified. it just proves they bought similar materials lately.

whats wrong with older materials . in some cases its fine. i often buy screws, sealents etc in bulk to save costs and often have materials left over from jobs that are perfectly fine.

your system would mean that everything not used would be dumped because it would have to future value

the receipt only proves what the trademan paid for the materials not what the cost to the customer is.

dotsman · 12-09-2022 1:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605907#Comment_119605907

I don't think anybody is talking about screws/sealant here.

12-09-2022 1:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605698#Comment_119605698

It's just that it looks as if the tradesperson black economy is thriving again. After years of written quotes, printed receipts and VAT numbers I've heard an increasing number of "cash" stories lately (and I've had one or two such quotes myself).

They'd be no use to me for exactly the reasons you say. If I've no written estimate and no receipt, my job's been done by a ghost, and ghosts give no guarantees.

Oddly enough, our own experience of tradespeople over the years has ranged from decent to excellent, and whatever else we've experienced we haven't had anyone we'd call a "cowboy". We've had a bit of bad luck with electricians, but more to do with personalities and stuff than with the quality of the work. And lately we've had a builder and a set of tradespeople we'd have no bother recommending - not cheap, but worth the money.

It's usually the cheap option that gets you, as far as I can tell.

Kaisr Sose · 12-09-2022 1:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605842#Comment_119605842

Gas fitter attempted to fit a reconditioned PCB into my boiler. It was clearly old, full of carbon dust etc. He also fitted it wrong by reversing the pump connections on a combi boiler. That's how I found out about the old Pcb. I was charged for a new one..

This type of thing is rampant on pumps (as per other poster). Normally its the flow switch that goes and it can be repaired. Charge new, fit old.

It's really bad practice from so called professional. Fitting old and refurbished is OK only if it's declared as such and the customer says OK.

The practice of quoting a price and then at payment time saying it was a cash and Vat free deal is unprofessional. Receipts are essential for all work and paying cash with no receipt is facilating tax evasion.

Kaisr Sose · 12-09-2022 1:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605982#Comment_119605982

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605907#Comment_119605907

Spot on. Second hand screws or sealant.. 🤣

They are just sundries in most jobs,

MrMusician18 · 12-09-2022 2:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603398#Comment_119603398

Any time I've been purchasing tools of late, the lads on the continent are always a good bit cheaper than here.

Irish businesses generally have a real problem providing value.

the_pen_turner · 12-09-2022 9:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605994#Comment_119605994

the last decent sized job i did the fixings and sealants etc were over 500 euro. hardly insegnificant

all the smaller stuff adds up fast

the_pen_turner · 12-09-2022 9:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605994#Comment_119605994

im nots saying they would be second hand just older stock that the trade doesnt have a receipt for.

Kaisr Sose · 12-09-2022 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606405#Comment_119606405

That is different as they are bought in bulk for that job. For small job I don't think you would be going out buying boxes of screws or sealant. They are normally in the bag or van things, and commonly used day to day. If you had to buy a particular sealant or colour, then it would be correct to invoice that cost.

Kaisr Sose · 12-09-2022 10:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606416#Comment_119606416

OK.

the_pen_turner · 12-09-2022 11:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606581#Comment_119606581

why would van stock not be invoiced .

fair enough if its a few screws but thats fairly rare unless its a tiny job

i buy in bulk to cover multiple jobs and future jobs.

HBC08 · 12-09-2022 11:36am

Bad tradespeople stay in business because of supply and demand.Theres not enough good tradespeople about,also if you're stuck ie you boiler stops working on 23rd December (this actually happened to me last year) you're going to take anyone who says they can do it.In my own case i was lucky that my regular boiler man was very sound and called out to me.

If you can't get a recommended or reputable person then you are taking a leap of faith and they might turn out excellent or terrible or somewhere in between.

You can try to minimise the risk here by seeing if there are online reviews,never use travellers or cold callers etc but it's still a risk.

My way to deal with this is to use friends who I trust to do the work or tradespeople with recommendations from friends/acquaintances.Its not that difficult to throw it into a few WhatsApp groups either and see who comes back with some suggestions.

Always make sure to pay on time/upfront or whatever they want (I always give a generous tip to my mechanic who will then fit me in quickly any time I need him)

You need to build up a reliable network of tradespeople because between handyman,tree surgeon,mechanic,boiler,painter,gardener etc you're going to be dealing with them a lot over the years.

Find a good person,treat them well if they treat you well and have a good relationship going forward.

MV33 · 12-09-2022 12:13pm

I Really feel sorry for apprentices now and in the future.

They are learning from a shockingly bad generation of trades people now.

Also foremen have a lot to answer for in this country. They are happy to turn the other way.

corner of hells · 12-09-2022 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606998#Comment_119606998

Is that all trades ?

BrianD3 · 12-09-2022 1:47pm

Although tradesmen seem to be particularly bad, they're far from the only ones who provide a poor service. I have posted extensively on boards about my experiences with GPs and with the HSE (and agencies engaged by the HSE) in relation to homecare. These are examples of essential services outsourced to the private sector using public money. GPs are a law onto themselves and the HSE is utterly useless at managing the performance of private sector agencies THAT IT ENGAGED.

I was reminded of that after reading the post in this thread about a County Council providing disability grant money to a homeowner with an approved contractor carrying out the works. Then when the work wasn't up to standard, the Council didn't want to know about it and instead were talking about prosecuting the homeowner. Jesus wept.

The post in this thread about the missing brick and trying to convince the customer to accept a different brick - sounds like a small thing but that would erode my confidence in someone and make me think they have a FIID mentality - "fcuk it, it'll do".

I think customers who have high standards, have done their research, expect punctuality etc. are seen as pedantic nerds in this country. A kind of tall poppy syndrome. Acceptance of poor workmanship then becomes cultural. Add to that the ineptitude of public bodies when it comes to procurement, performance management and regulation and is it any wonder that there are large numbers of useless fcukers about, in trades and other sectors.

Kaisr Sose · 12-09-2022 1:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606680#Comment_119606680

I am rrferring to a dab or strip of mastic and a few screws. Sure, if you want to charge for them you can but it's really marginal cost.

12-09-2022 2:57pm

Remember that British program Rogue Traders ?

We got a good plumber, knows what he's doing and reliable, comes when he says and finished the job and now we're asking him to do extra work not planned but he'll do it of course for a fee. He's not cheap but we got most of the rads replaced with TRV and running pipes to the hot press through the attic for a pellet stove we're having fitted. He did a good job and he cleans up after himself.

In our old house the lads we got to do the bathroom did a good job too, reliable and knew what they were doing. But it is difficult to find people to do proper work.

Getting someone to cut a pine tree for less than 2500 Euro's has been a challenge and need to get another tree cut too but 3500-4K to cut two trees seems highly excessive ? I could never imagined People want to charge so much and "that's including a discount for the wood " up the yard.

Only for their close proximity to the house I'd do it myself, the roots of the pine are breaking up the ground and now at the footpath so we really need to get rid, if anyone knows someone good around the Carlow area let me know.

You'd think there's be people glad of the free wood for a bit of work no ?

The last couple of times we got People off the internet that had been reviewed and we leave good feedback when it's deserved so definitely anyone who is good should advertise on the web. You know the sites that you put up what you want done and they call back, you check the reviews etc, a lot safer than someone unknown with no reputation.

MV33 · 12-09-2022 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119607177#Comment_119607177

Electricians

Carpenters

Brick Layers

Plasterers

Plumbers

Etc

Funny enough the Foremen seem to turn a blind eye to build quality.

Snaggers are so used to the sh1te standards even they seem to have started ignoring many faults

Strumms · 12-09-2022 3:57pm

Because of the shortage of tradespeople and the pressure to finish, get to the next job etc, quality is suffering… we obtained the quote in the first quarter of the year ! and it’s only last week we get the work done….

lots of bad tradespeople in business because of a lack of tradespeople….

many don’t have any trade and it’s a monkey see monkey do operation.

corner of hells · 12-09-2022 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119608126#Comment_119608126

Thank god my trade is there or I'd feel left out.

If standards are so poor why aren't houses / buildings collapsing, burning down , heating installations going on fire ?

As for snagging , no snagger should go near either plumbing or electrical installation.

All electrical installations have tested verified and signed off , I think plumbing has to be too and gas installation is to be of RGI standard.

MV33 · 12-09-2022 6:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119608760#Comment_119608760

Hold on.

Just to be clear on what you are saying.

Are you saying that as a tradesman…… You rate the quality of work based on if the buildings collapsing, burning down , heating installations going on fire ?

If none of the above happens it’s a quality job.

Should a concrete floor be level?

Should internal walls be plumb?

Should the thermostat upstairs control the heating downstairs and visa versa?

Should tiles be lose on the bathroom floor?

Should the shower tray in the en-suite actually be connected to a pipe correctly or do new builds come with water features in living rooms.

300 new houses in our development with an average of 160 snags per house.

but based on what you categorised as quality I’m guessing you are a foreman.

”Sur doesn’t it have 4 walls and a roof” “Tis a grand job”

I mean how the F can people not even fit switch and plug sockets straight.

Ush1 · 12-09-2022 7:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119608760#Comment_119608760

I see you set the bar quite high. Is that the safety checks? Well the building didn't fall down lads so it's a perfect job!

BrianD3 · 12-09-2022 9:39pm

I see there is a very active and rapidly growing solar panel owners group on Facebook. People are panicing about energy costs and desperate to get panels installed. In situations like this, there is a big risk of price gouging and/or work not being done right and that cowboy installers will spring up. As a result I'd be dubious about getting panels in at this time. There are some photos on the FB group which show installers working on roofs without complying with H&S standards, what other corners are they cutting.

12-09-2022 9:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606680#Comment_119606680

I bill out miscellaneous aswell,50 euro for any reasonable sized job.....few cable ties/sealents etc etc soon run into money

Ginger83 · 12-09-2022 9:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119607440#Comment_119607440

At least it's possible to make a complaint to a medical board about a GP but builders can leave a job any way at all and just walk away.

Under a disabled grant the vat can be reclaimed by the disabled person. We had to fight with the builder to get a vat invoice because they told us we didn't pay vat. In the end we had to threaten to involve Revenue but it just shows the neck of a builder not declaring grant payments.

the_pen_turner · 12-09-2022 10:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119609868#Comment_119609868

i generally add 5 euro a day to cover that sort of stuff. sometimes more or less depending on the type of work.

i find its disposible gloves, wonder wipes, bin bags, duct tape, impact bits for driving screws, multitool / recip saw blades and dust masks that add up the fastest.

i never seem to directly invoice for stuff like that unless using loads. im always buying these things. they are not cheap