Do affordable EVs exist in Ireland

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119684707#Comment_119684707

I thought the EV transition was being planned on the basis that the ICE cars will continue to be sold new up to 2030.

And continue being used for the following 15 years up to 2045.....

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119684312#Comment_119684312

Yeah he can switch it off from his apartment.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119684635#Comment_119684635

About as legal as erecting a "ballgames not permitted here" sign without permission. His management company is less than useless and have been discussing EV chargers in the UG carpark for at least 4 years. All they do is discuss and defer. Sometimes people just need to act (within reason) to get something done and pave the way forward.

Busman Paddy Lasty

Cat A VRT is 7% and this is not specifically for EVs. Any petrol or diesel is welcome to achieve <50g CO2/km. The €5k grant is arguably not the best use of taxpayers money and it looks like it's going to be reduced or removed next year.

gabbo is coming

Hi, slightly off topic but why does nobody talk about the eberlingo, erifter and combi, are they just terrible?

Will they eventually get a 75kwh battery?

PCeeeee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119691692#Comment_119691692

Interested in this too if anyone has one.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119688546#Comment_119688546

Vrt was designed as a measure to screw as much money as possible out of motorists under an environmental veneer. It was designed for ICE cars and not EVs. EVs are effectively a class of private vehicle that are effectively untaxed as the Govt effectively pays people to drive them. How long can this last?

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119691748#Comment_119691748

In my eyes paying people to drive an EV would be something like.

"Heres an EV thats not only free but we will give you 250 euro a month to drive the car".

The thing to remember is that for sure taxpayers are paying EV grants.....

But the thing is - EV drivers are also taxpayers.....

The point of a grant is to try to compensate for the fact that EVs are (unless its an MG4) usually dearer then the ICE equivalent.

For me the idea EV drivers are being paid to drive the cars is just not true.

Timfy

Serious question... I'm neither pro nor anti EV, just trying to cost it all out like most people seem to be on here.

With EVs being considerably heavier and delivering torque in a much more "on/off" way, is the cost of tyres something that should be taken into account?

I get through a set per year on a 1.5 Captur (not driving like a nutter, just a lot of rough surfaces and swervery out here in the sticks!). Having to increase that could be pricey...

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119692112#Comment_119692112

I got cupra born this week, has 3 year cupra care package included which is free service plan I believe, but it also includes my first set of replacement tyres. It's my first ev so we'll see how long the tyres last compared to other cars I've owned.

I don't know if other EVs have this as part of the purchase or not

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119692011#Comment_119692011

Obviously I didn't mean the Govt is delivering a gift wrapped present but that EVs are subject to negative motor related taxation

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119692709#Comment_119692709

Out of interest what tyres did your Born come with? I know with the ID.3 there were/are at least three makes, with very different lasting qualities.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119692758#Comment_119692758

Bridgestone Turanza

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119692795#Comment_119692795

One of the better tyres imo. Should get 30K at least out of them..😊

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119692883#Comment_119692883

Sorry I am incorrect, they are the ones that don't seem to last too well on the ID.3. Getting mixed up, sorry..

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119692888#Comment_119692888

Make up your mind!

Hopefully I get 30k kms out of the 2 sets so

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119691692#Comment_119691692

Most people wanting one (myself included) want 7 seat versions which are either not available in Ireland, way more expensive, or have tiny range. This is what put me off.

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119692917#Comment_119692917

Yea I think some people only got about 15K from the Bridgestones, I got 27K from the Goodyears (Not all easy driving) with still some life left

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119692931#Comment_119692931

We are all different drivers on different surfaces so we'll see how I get on.

I'd be easy enough on tyres and brakes, I can't stand seeing people drive up behind others then braking where just keeping proper distance they could do it without braking and accelerating.

I get a move on when there is space to do it all the same

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119691692#Comment_119691692

eBerlingo starts at €35k. That's a lot of money for what's essentially a van with only 5 seats and very limited motorway range

You do get lots of space though and the reviews were pretty good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0GKxVQboDA

Busman Paddy Lasty

^^ Specifically says in previous comment that the bands are CO2 based and not reserved for electrics.

VRT is designed to screw punters, agreed and nothing new there. Should be abolished. EVs are subject to VRT and VAT and the incentive will be tapered or removed. Negative taxation new cars, not in this country.

mc2022B2TF

So there is still vrt relief of hybrids for example if they co2 emissions are less than 50?

Busman Paddy Lasty

In that case they would qualify for the 7% VRT band.

gabbo is coming

But you can get 7 seats?

gabbo is coming

Agree though, 50kw too small for that van/car. 75kw and I'd definitely consider it. Great reviews

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119693621#Comment_119693621

Aye, just watched parts of that review and he says you can get it in 7 seater form for €1k more. So that's a €36k EV 7-seater. Which I suppose is not too bad as there are very few of those about.

poker--addict

I think I have some sympathy with the main arguments of this thread. Can I sense check my perspective? I’d like to have my mind changed.

The SUV space seems reasonable to look at, given their popularity in ICE and EV. We currently own a SEAT Ateca due kids. It is worth adding that crossover and suv tags get blurred, but in my experience a 2008 is a very different proposition to a 3008, likewise an Ateca and Arona. I add this as some EVs seem to almost find the middle of the two and blur comparisons. There is a lot of small SUV EV, not sure the iD4 size has much competition just yet, without going to even higher prices.

In practical terms a SEAT Ateca, or a Peugeot 3008 new is €37,000, give or take €1,500 for spec. As far as I can see no true SUV/ similar sized EV exists under €48,000 euro, give or take €1,500 for spec again, and really we could say it’s more like €52,000.

At larger size, 7 seats was mentioned above, Skoda Kodiaq looks about 49-€50,000 average spec, the very similar EV Enyaq seems to start at €65,000.

So €10,000 seems a minimum extra cost for an EV, after the government grant is supposed to have subsidised us. Average fuel savings for average drivers would be in the region of €1,500 to €2,000 depending on ability to charge for “free” with PV (which isn’t free to install). An EV charger will be €600ish. Motor Tax saving maybe €100, but I understand tyre costs increase.

€10,000 upfront to save €1,500, more likely closer to €15,000 up front for SUVs larger than a crossover. For most people in todays climate this seems like a questionably investment, and a bad idea if requiring increasingly expensive finance for the upfront capital.

I haven’t mentioned depreciation, strange supply and demand times right now, and ICE hasn’t depreciated at previous rates. But arguments can be made that both will eventually see more normal and similar depreciation curves, over a 4 year time horizon I am ignoring this given inability to assume much that will change the dynamic, after that ICE may struggle, but given what we are seeing and the costs, maybe we reach a stage where new ICE is banned in 2030, and our 2nd hand ICE are gold dust.

The ioniq5 looks like a very fair comparison to high spec Ateca, and it’s 55x59000, almost 20,000 euros more. Really?

Maths better if doing huge miles, but then I guess driving the type of driving that gives huge miles means needing to charge away from home more frequently, at higher charge costs.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750885#Comment_119750885

We all do maths sometimes to suit ourselves but as a new EV owner, this was my thought process....although there are other considerations for people that like cars, in my case I just wanted an EV.

We very rarely buy new cars and use them to the end of their useful life. Some do, but most people fortunate enough to be able to buy new cars do so every few years. Especially now with pcp making it easier for people to do so. And very, very few fund the full price themselves so there's not much more initial outlay really, despite the headline prices being much higher.

So no matter how we pay for them we depreciate them a portion of their new cost. I dont care about deposits, monthly payments, final values, deoreciation is real true cost.

Say 3 years, and the car is worth 2/3 of its new value which is ballpark where market is at the moment. Between 60-70% anyway.

Taking grants being taken away next year as that's an unknown, but it will affect things if it comes to pass, a 50k EV and a 40k ICE SUV will depreciate by 15-20k and 12-16k respectively.

I'm assuming consumer sentiment towards ICE stays the same, which I think it will for at least the life of the current generation of cars for sale before government policies really kick in.

So the cost gap of depreciation is not 10k any more over the ownership period, but more like 3-4k, maybe up to 5k as my figures are not exact.

So that's the figure you work from with reduced running costs, somewhere between 1000 and 2000 a year. For a lot of people that's going to be close and that's why the EV v ICE debate rages on, there's no clear winner.

Taking away financial considerations, you then have a discussion about image and perception, range anxiety if you regularly drive long distances, how the cars look feel and how they fit into your life.

innrain

I'd compare same brand offering like Tucson vs Ioniq5 A coffee per month more expensive

DaveyDave

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750885#Comment_119750885

Yeah it really depends on the type of car you're looking at and the bigger SUV/crossovers lose out on grants making them even more expensive as you go up in spec or battery size.

My Cupra Born was a very similar price to a high spec 1.5 Golf automatic I was looking at and my sister went for a €47k Tucson hybrid as they couldn't get an Ioniq 5 so for them the EV was still a similar price.

Obviously outside of a specific handful of cars most people will still need a hefty increase to make the jump to EV from what they would normally drive. Hopefully the likes of the MG4 being under €30k can suit people's needs.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751276#Comment_119751276

I still think (biased as I am) that the base spec Ioniq 5 offers the next best value compared to the MGs. It's almost not really a representation of the EV market.

amacca

If the grant were to go next year would that not put a big dent in depreciation of EVs?

Less people buy at higher price point, less used EVs, used EV prices remain high?

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751680#Comment_119751680

How much is a base spec ioniq5 post grants now?Incl delivery.

I've read it used to be sub 40k. Hard to gauge from donedeal ads if they have extras, grant included etc but there's a huge range from cheapest to dearest.

Most ads aren't even advertising a particular car, more an invitation to contact them to order one?

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751829#Comment_119751829

So the theory goes.

Plus the increase in new prices qould make used ones more attractive at any given price level

Ummagumma_78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751960#Comment_119751960

Approx €41500

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752015#Comment_119752015

That's not bad at all, I do like the ioniq5. The problem is supply though isn't it? Same old story

handpref

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751680#Comment_119751680

Agree. Probably represents the best value of any established EV at the 58kwh battery size, price point - a lot of car for the money.

I would have liked to get one but the 58 battery pack just didn’t have the range for us, the 77 was too expensive compared to the id3 Tour, that was all before things got silly with pricing.

At €41,500 I don’t see it having much competition versus the id3 dx or seat alternative, same cars underneath , I’d even rate it above the 77kwh id4 dx which is very poorly spec’d and +€50k.

The Niro may be better equipped to take on that €41,500 price point with high end spec, bigger battery, range etc provided they don’t keep jacking up the price.

All in all a great machine the Ioniq 5.

mc2022B2TF

The ioniq base gets full seai grant and also vrt relief.

Even the executive plus

It's probably only a 280km car though in reality at any sort of speed.

That's its only downfall but even at that it's more than enough range for most.

BTW hyundai have a lot of supply coming before Xmas and into the new year so not as long a wait as u may think.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753221#Comment_119753221

Fair comment re range, we did 1800km thru France at 120kph on the autoroutea this summer, and range was probably about 300km. Bt didn't really mind wih lots of 150kw to 200kw Ionity charging available.

Pottering around at 80kph though, it was about 400km.

Huge difference that your speed makes to energy consumption. (Square relationship!)

unkel

@poker--addict - "I haven’t mentioned depreciation"

😁

If you buy a reasonably priced EV with the grant now, you will likely have extremely low depreciation compared to buying an ICE car. Just a tiny example, my sister in law bought a base Ioniq 5 at the start of the year. She could sell it for more than she paid for it today. And the grant is still here.

poker--addict

Some great points. Range anxiety is not an issue for me, I have run out of petrol more than once! doh!

On depreciation, my ICE looks to be selling for basically what I bought it at 2.5 years ago too.

Innrain, I like your comparison; it is the type I have not been finding with ease. Not sure how big the Ioniq is inside, but it looks like a decent size externally. The price difference looks to be around 5k, which is much better than 10-15k, and cost over life (or ownership) is likely to be at least equal to the average annual KM. Beyond Hyundai is there any others you would draw up to compare?

unkel

Ioniq 5 is very big inside. It has a wheelbase of 3000mm, which is the same as giant SUVs like the Audi Q7, Tesla Model X and Volvo XC90

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753602#Comment_119753602

From the Peugeot website

208

2008

Electric

vs Diesel

2k difference.

 Citroën C4

similar when comparing to the automatic gearbox.

Even the beamer line-up does not look like 15k difference to me

poker--addict

The 2008 is a crossover at best, and is not an SUV in my experience. I test drove it, and rejected it due to non existent back seats. It is probably not a car many would wish to do more than 20,000KM per annum in. That meas two things 1) less fuel savings due to less miles and 2)it is at a lower price ranges. So obviously 10k difference cant happen - but if we flip it into percentage terms then it is 7% more expensive than the ICE model. Any sign of the 3008 EV or its price?

Had the pleasure of an Ioniq5 test drive this morning. There is no way it can be compared to the Tucson either. The Tucson is a proper large SUV/jeep. The Ioniq5 is in simple terms smaller and lower. I thought the tucson v ioniq5 comparison above was a fair one to bust my theory of expect to spend 10,000e more on an EV, and now that I have seen both side by side, the comparison actually supports my feeling. An EV tuscon would cost way more than the Ioniq5!!!

That is not to knock the Ioniq5, it really is an impressive car, the large boot will make it adequate for many who seek out an SUV for space reasons.

Cant comment on the BMW line up as not familiar with the specs of i4 v the rest.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755751#Comment_119755751

The Ioniq5 is in simple terms smaller and lower.

I think you're a bit mistaken.

The dimensions from Hyundai website. It is lower but not smaller. Clever design I believe

Also in more details here https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/hyundai-tucson-2020-suv-vs-hyundai-ioniq-5-2021-suv/?consentmsg=634d4d8a506b2

unkel

The extra 32cm of wheelbase means the Ioniq 5 is a full size of a vehicle bigger than the Tucson in terms of usable space inside. Tucson is mid size, Ioniq 5 is full size (same wheelbase as giants like Audi Q7, Tesla Model X, Volvo XC90)

Perhaps @poker--addict is talking more about the "looks"? The Tucson looks like a big SUV / crossover and has butch looks. The Ioniq 5 not so much, looks more like an oversized hatchback

poker--addict

You are both correct. I couldn’t believe the boot size when I saw it, it looks huge. Of course the interior of car is spacious too.

There is no definition of an SUV but most definitions give a nod towards elevated from the ground floors or driving positions, as opposed to lower hatchbacks.

if the Tucson was full EV tomorrow, what price would it be relative to the Ioniq5?

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758906#Comment_119758906

15-20% more going roughly with the Kona and kona ev. So an extra 6-8k on the executive spec which is around 45-47k. I reckon it would be cheaper, but just guessing.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758906#Comment_119758906

It's one of my main problems with the SUV term, before that cars were sensibly categorised into body style and size (A, B, C, etc). Now many models get lumped into a meaningless SUV category which leads to ignorant campaigners bemoaning the rise of marketing terms SUVs.

poker--addict

Resurrecting this debate again, having been doing some more research.

It is really annoying to search EV and get Kona, 2008s, and then Enyaq in the same search. They couldn’t be more dissimilar in terms of looks or function.

While there is no firm suv definition most would expect “elevated driving position” to be central to any definition, which none of the crossovers have, and arguably cars like ioniq5 are borderline (hence debate above about ioniq 5 v tuscon).

I am hopeful 2023 might see some additional competition and EV starting to make clear financial sense over their ICE direct comparison.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080938#Comment_120080938

SUV.....Squint Ur Vision. Suspect a car to be an SUV? Stand back, hold your breath and squint your eyes. If it resembles a Quashqai, it's an SUV.

Ridiculous how many cars are labelled SUV. Smaller versions bing crossovers. Give me strength.