Working class! Why bother, whats to gain.

Half_Loaf

I was always under the belief that if you work hard and put in the time you will get your due deserved rewards but, for me this is completely wrong. Or it appears to me to be. Some context, i am recently graduated with a degree in Computer science and i have a reasonably good job and the salary is competitive. Its a luxury to have this i know but understand this was by no means gifted to me i have worked my entire life to get to a position like i am in now but i can't help thinking it was all a race to get nowhere.

Sure we have at this time many contributing factors to the cost of living and never seen in our lifetime events happening but this is contributing to a problem that has been in existence for far longer that our short sighted human mind is capable of comprehending.

Okay, get to the point will you. Sure, my point is that our system in Ireland has failed to serve the people whom keep the lights on (working class) and is more serving the rich and lazy. Social supports in this country are killing what chance a working class professional has at my age to save, own a home etc. But i find it funny its rich philanthropy, basically rich people pretending to help the poor at the expense of the working class. Now its worth noting that the current cost of living crisis is outside the scope of what i am talking about here there is a definite need for the government to step in and relive the pressure for people as these are exceptional circumstances. However i think this will increase the dependence of the people on the government and to me we should be working in the opposite direction. We should be striving for a nation that is self reliant and each individual is their own sovereign nation. I am not talking abolishing the government either as i know there is a vital role to be played for a vast amount of services that only a centralized governing body could maintain and oversee.

Let me tackle some points here and feel free to give your opinion, remember this is not me blabbering my opinion and willing to fight any opposition. Quite the contrary, it is merely me trying to understand where exactly our country would be if we continue our course.

Social Welfare:

Everybody knows that from time to time people come in to difficulties for a number of reasons. You would be naive to think that there are people out there whom don't take advantage of a loosely coupled system. Some points to name a few:

• Paid welfare is reflective of the tax you have paid in your lifetime or related to your earning potential. 1 year at full rate and from then on a stamp system.
• Bar stated above we should adopt a stamp based system, food stamps, fuel stamps etc no cash should be given.
• You should have to maintain your accounts like you are running a company expenditure and submit this on a monthly basis.

The advantages of this would be to limit the abuse of a social welfare system. Give people what they require to live not a lump of cash as they see fit. The regular maintenance of accounts would keep people at work in some regards.

Government & Tax:

• Government should not have any obligation to house people in their own personal house, Ohh i hear you "WHAT DO YOU EXPECT IN THIS MARKET PEOPLE WOULD BE ON THE STREET" .... "HOUSE PRICES ARE TO HIGH FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO POSSIBILITY ACQUIRE A HOUSE". Lets not lie about what we see today, we have a housing market in the absolute bin as well as a rental crisis. A lot of this is attributed to the mass immigration we see today but these were problems before only exasperated by recent conditions. The goal of this point is that we should have a structure where by average people can afford houses. Not what we see today where the rich can own as many as they please and the low income get packages to assist them (while an awful system) in purchasing. What about the working class people however? the people whom have worked their life to ensure that they could keep the head above water but now due to the influx of government packages are subjected to higher house prices and a barrier of entry that is unrealistic. Unable to qualify for any packages but footing the bill for the rest.
• Income tax should be 20% at most up to €100,000 and 50% if over. Basically what i have seen in my limited experience is you get penalized for trying to climb the ladder. Tax is a necessity but not at the level we see it today. 40% income tax over 40k ensures you will never have a comfortable standard of living. It only serves to ensure people can not become self sufficient and are always tethering on the bread line.
• Planning regulations can only stop you from building in a dangerous locations not telling you where you can build as we see today planning is moving more to a hub based approach as this makes it easier for the government to couple services around them. These services are basically non existing outside your city slicker locations.
• Move to a more decentralized system, we are running politics as if we still lived in the dark ages where "I stand for the people" but the people should be responsible for themselves. I don't think it benefits. We live in an age that has the ability to stand for itself yet we hide behind people whom lets face it only half if even stand for us.
• Public expenditure should all be listed on a live site with a breakdown of all the tax paid and the expenditure clearly outlined, have you tried to see where the public money goes? let me tell you it is buried in documents that even a team of annalists could not make sense off.
• Dependence on the government should lower and personal sovereignty should be strengthened.

Just to name a few.

In my experience its like this. They tell you to go to college and get a good job. Where you have to pay rent the entire time and miss out on earning for almost 4 years. Then you get a good job "hooray" but by this time you have debt from attending college. So you get a good job to then get more money now you are hit with the tax rate of 40% over 40k. On top of that if you want skilled work you probably must live in a city where the rent is taking a considerable portion of your income. So between the cost of time and then the cost endured after as a summation of all the factors i cant help but wonder. What was the point? were we all better to just work as soon as we left school and not be lining up to get leveled by the current structure. Or just never work and play the waiting game for the government to step in and provide what i was too dam lazy to do myself. It could be said it was mistaking progress for movement.

Nevertheless it is what it is, but i can understand why people emigrate from this country. Funny how Ireland is known for its hospitality for other nations but a tyrant to its own people or maybe it just feels that way from my "privileged" position but let me tell you there is nothing privileged about it. I wrote this to try and understand what other peoples opinion is, please educate me if you must on some things i would be to naive to know or just plain wrong but surly it is not just me whom feels let down by the whole setup.

Kurooi

Are computer science majors working class now?

Half_Loaf

Well at the time of writing in my circumstance I am working class. You would be correct in stating this career would fit in the middle class section but we are not there just yet. Only two years in. If your interested i work for a software company that makes thinks that nobody really needs, fixing problems we invented in the first place. But its fun and i really like it so there is that.

Padre_Pio

I don't really agree or disagree with some of these points, but I think some of the points are exaggerated.

1. There are not many long term unemployed. We're at 4.3% unemployment which is as low as it's ever gotten. There are many reasons people are unemployed, but long term unemployed is a low fraction of the entire adult working population. Training courses and placements massage these figures to make the government look good, but by and large the vast vast majority work and pay tax.
2. Stamp systems would likely cost more than what they would save, considering a lot of social welfare is recovered in various taxes.
3. There is no benefit to checking SW recipient's expenditure. There are systems in place to prevent fraud.

A lot of your points relate to cost of housing, which is more related to a complete failure in housing policy than pay, cost of living and many other factors that people point to. Housing was very affordable before 2017. It's only recently that a large combination of factors has pushed it above affordable in some areas in the country. It's a huge issue, but the only solution is to build more houses and apartments.

RE the second part

1. Ireland has a progressive tax system. I agree that it's excessive and if you're of good health and no kids then you'll hardly see a penny of your tax in any government service. That said Irish healthcare (for all its scandals) is up there in terms of delivery. Very few people die because they didn't get seen to, or because Ireland doesn't offer a service that other first-world countries offer. The standard of living in Ireland is very high for everyone, compared to our neighbours.
2. Planning regs are a response to decades of lack of planning regulations. Again, I think they're excessive but here we are.
3. Public expenditure is accessed here if you want it: https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

"In my experience its like this. They tell you to go to college and get a good job...ect"

Your family tells you this, not the government. You don't have to go to college. Get a trade, earn money immediately, or go to college outside of Dublin and pay cheaper rent and maybe cheaper fees. It's all the same at the end of the day. You don't need to move to a city for work, COVID changed all that for many. I don't think you're necessarily wrong, but you're definitely a glass half empty.

The bit about lads on s/w having to maintain a set of accounts to keep them busy was a nice touch. Haven't heard that one before.

Half_Loaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618647#Comment_119618647

Thank you for this also the link was a very nice touch on expenditure, I could never find this. I must say I agree with most everything you have corrected me on.

Correct my outlook is glass half full, but I have grown up in a time where i seen my parents crippled by the 2008 crisis and now that i am at an age where I need to start securing my future it seems an uphill battle. Yeah i hear you too "Ohh look here another poor me crusader" but I am just a realist I think. I don't feel personally affected but just very much let down. This too will pass.

SEPT 23 1989

Sorry we have stopped serving breakfast

We’re on the lunch menu now

joseywhales

As someone maybe further down your career path, whatever you are earning now is pittance compared to what you will probably earn in ten years. A fresh grad, however smart and hardworking, rarely even covers their cost. A few years of experience will make you far more valuable and you will eventually be rewarded in multiples of your current salary. The point of the degree was not to compare v your peers on year one as a fresh grad, compare your salary in ten years v a trade for example and remember that you won't have to be lifting boards or climbing into crawl spaces with poor ventilation when you are in your sixties.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058263359/working-class-why-bother-whats-to-gain

Until a political party that would be remotely likely to embrace such an approach comes into existence and people start voting for it in numbers this will remain a pipe dream.

Shebean

I was always under the belief that if you work hard and put in the time you will get your due deserved rewards but, for me this is completely wrong. 

This was always a myth to an extent. You can be actually working class, work hard all your life and never become middle class. What's happening more and more is people from previously secure backgrounds and with reasonable opportunities are feeling the pinch.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618743#Comment_119618743

Personally I don't think begrudging people being given what's deemed the minimum to live on so they don't starve or have to send the kids to school in rags, is part of the solution.

Things are tough and getting tougher. I don't envy younger people entering the workplace or housing market.

Housing is the way it is because of successive FF/FG governments. Outside factors contributed but we bring it on ourselves for the most part. You can literally take any issue and it falls on the Fianna Fail or Fine Gael lap. The energy crisis. Yes external factors play a part but so does a for profit model for the ESB, data centers and years of no investment in maintaining the infrastructure.

I would suggest punching up rather than down.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618746#Comment_119618746

Main item on menu: half a loaf. Better than no bread...

Donald Trump

If you have a half decent computer science degree and you want to earn money but you find that you aren't earning 80k+, or even 100k+, by the time you hit 30, then you only have yourself to blame.

Before anyone loses their sh1t - I'm not saying that everyone who has such a degree is on that money. Just that if you want that, then it is fairly achievable.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619393#Comment_119619393

https://mashable.com/article/donald-trump-knows-tech

How could I ever have doubted you?

Half_Loaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619292#Comment_119619292

A valid point on punching up well put. On the FF/FG thing i honestly don't know how any party would be much better the faith I currently have in the current regime is non existing. For the life of me I can never understand why we have a party model. Why must it always be us against them politics. Politicians should all be independent and propose policy's not a party. People should vote on these policy's not this party crap. Accountability to the policy that was promised should also play as a factor in a disciplinary process each year. Same way I enter a contract at my job definition is layed out, if I fail to meet what i promised I should be removed from my role for not adhering to what was promised. This thing off "ohh you voted us in so you MUST deal with that for 4-5 years". I know we cant hold a general election every year that is madness but we should definitely hold people accountable to promises made.

Half_Loaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619393#Comment_119619393

Getting there, I will keep the window in mind.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619431#Comment_119619431

If they want to make the big bucks then they can head to the US. West Coast is where it has been at the last 5+ years. There are fresh graduates walking into the big companies over there, starting on about $200k. You might think it's crazy, but that's the way it is.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619492#Comment_119619492

Are you Loafing Oaf's son?

Half_Loaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618809#Comment_119618809

This won't happen any time soon i am in no way naive about that. It sometimes takes a generation to pass before fundamental changes in behavior fully take hold. In saying this there was a time in Irish history where the government structure served the people and did so as best it could under trying circumstances, but today is a different world with new problems. Change is inevitable you can either go with it or fight against it.

Count Dracula

If you work hard, you should get results.

If after 5 years of hard work you feel you are not as successful as you demand to be, you need to revisit what you are doing and make changes.

Good luck.

Don't forget life is not all about achievement and challenging norms. It is about living your own normality and enjoying it.

You are still very,very young. Don't forget that. You are going to come across lots of opportunity and in many cases you will not even realise they are there.? Just enjoy yourself and try to avoid dead ends, where possible, they will waste a lot of your time and time is very important. Don't waste it, enjoy it.

Oh and by btw, there is no such such thing as "working class" in Ireland. It is a notional archaic economic concept dreamt up by idealists which was maybe pertinent to major industrial economies in the 17th century. Irish people who live off welfare and do phuck all are not working class... they are actually a gang of useless good for nothing dysfunctional chunts trapped in their own nonexistence. Don't go there, it is not worth it. My doctor works 70 hours a week, that is called "working" for a living.

No one is going to give you shight, you have to work it no matter where you think you are from, or what you are doing.

Half_Loaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619531#Comment_119619531

Yeah I know about the "class" thing as bullshit, i was entertaining a persons comment. Thanks for the comment i agree with pretty much it all, and i don't want anyone to give me **** i want to earn what i have. Value is self derived it cant be handed down.

Count Dracula

Well at the time of writing in my circumstance I am working class.

Yeah I know about the "class" thing as bullshit

I would be aiming to have a touch of cohesiveness in your arguments as well...

Your current notions are suffering to clarify themselves. Workers cannot tolerate people who pretend to be straight talkers and turn out not to be.

riclad

You are blaming welfare for the cost of housing housing is expensive cos lack of supply , houses need water, power, maybe gas, we need planning regulations because otherwise there would be chaos, what happened is after the boom bust in 2007, company's went bankrupt, building slowed down, many builders left Ireland to work in the EU, UK. That's how economy's work the banks were bailed by the government

All this is nothing to do with the welfare system

Governments since 2008 had no long term plan to increase the no of houses built, the tax system in regard to landlords is bad, they are paying maybe 50 per cent tax if you are a programmer you are likely on a good wage you could probably afford a 1 bed apartment maybe 200k

I listen to a podcast rocket relay fm. Christina warren says she's on a good wage she lives in sanfran USA she says she can't afford to buy an apartment in SF, eg average cost is 1.5 million for a standard apartment she's a senior cloud tech advocate Microsoft

The population has increased since 2008 we could use at least 200k housing units it's due to bad bank regulation bad planning that you cant buy a house look at the news every week there's an item local nimbys objecting to new apartments being built in dublin

People in houses don't want a 4 storey block being built in the area delays increase the cost of building the price of housing

We have inflation supply side crisis rising energy costs i think it'll take maybe 5 years to tackle the housing crisis building materials are 35 per cent higher since 2020

You might as well say its the weather global warming for the cost of housing let's say the government reduces taxs on salarys is that not going to increase house prices? You are competing with meta google workers when you go to buy a house

Working class are people who work in shops eg they don't have degrees they don't work in an office they drive trucks taxis vans the work on building sites eg they do manual labour

If you work at a desk use a pc laptop all day you are not working class you gave a degree or some technical qualification there's more young people going to college now than in the 80s, 90s

I don't blame gen z for being angry they pay taxs they pay high rents for mediocre rental units and the cost of living is going up every week

riclad

I don't regard someone as working class who has a degree or is employed to program or maintain apps or to develop programs or maintain code for a tech company. If you are on a good wage you can go on holidays, buy a car, choose where to live, buy expensive items like pcs, ps5 consoles etc Re housing in most city's you are competing with couples on salarys who have twice as much buying power versus a single person this apply in London Paris Rome, not just Ireland the ironic thing is the tech boom. Google Facebook is maybe one of the causes of the rise in house prices and high rents in dublin

Ham_Sandwich

another welfare bashing thread 🙄

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621682#Comment_119621682

I'll take Ham Sandwich over Half Loaf any day...

EOQRTL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621682#Comment_119621682

In fairness it's been about 3 days, must be a record?

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619484#Comment_119619484

We've only ever had a FF or FG led government. I see a pattern.

I Blame Sheeple

You said you wonder what's the point? Here's the point (my opinion at least). To recreate and pass on knowledge. Simplify it if you're getting too worked up about it all. You are young and you've a whole life ahead of you, don't be getting caught up in the idea that you can change anything and waste your youth trying - You can't. So just enjoy what you can control and forget the rest.

Recreate, pass on knowledge to your progeny and hope you did a good job.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618594#Comment_119618594

Are they also not provided for free anymore?

I got lost in the OP going on about the working class like him getting the shaft when just moments ago in their life they were the student class, getting all that “social support” to become a professional. What a concept! I suppose his or her taxes will be going to some other undeserving computer science student! 😡

TLDR - OP got theirs and wants to weld the door shut behind them

Brussels Sprout

Income tax should be 20% at most up to €100,000 and 50% if over. Basically what i have seen in my limited experience is you get penalized for trying to climb the ladder. Tax is a necessity but not at the level we see it today. 40% income tax over 40k ensures you will never have a comfortable standard of living. It only serves to ensure people can not become self sufficient and are always tethering on the bread line.

I presume you have costed this bold initiative OP?

Fred Cryton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618647#Comment_119618647

You are wrong about your first point about "only" 4.3% unemployment. That's 4.3% of those looking for work, not of the adult working age population. Studies have shown that around 12% of households containing adult working age people are not working. So the problem is about 3 times worse than the official unemployment rate.