WTF.A minutes silence for the death of Queen Elizabeth in the Dail today. Micheal Collins and Dev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623483#Comment_119623483

Good man. Wash it down with a decent Batard Montrachet like herself.

MakersMark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622278#Comment_119622278

The fenian is strong in this one.

touts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619684#Comment_119619684

James Joyce? Freedom fighter now is he? Tried to bore them to death with Ulysses.

BaywatchHQ

There was never any conflict in her reign with the Irish state, yes many IRA members were from the Republic but there was no conflict with the state itself.

I'm not actually sure what I think of the royals, I think the older generation who remember the troubles in my country have a dislike of them. The Queen gave an award to the commander of Bloody Sunday and she also awarded the RUC for bravery.

She may have been involved with peace making during her later decades but she still played a part in the cause of the troubles.

I think southerners are well brainwashed. I seen a comment on twitter from a young southerner saying that the IRA caused the troubles. Ignoring the years of discrimination that Catholics faced before 1969 and the British army/British terror groups killing too.

I think it may be an example of the halo effect, anyone under 40 just remembers the queen as this gray haired old lady. I think she reminds them of their granny.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624000#Comment_119624000

I'd imagine most people know the history that goes much further back than living memory, but things have moved on since then. It's possible to acknowledge the dark history of the British monarchy, while not holding the last incumbent personally responsible for all of it. It's possible to be respectful of her death and acknowledge that she was head of state for 70 years without personally mourning her death.

Bitterness and hatred are pointless, time to move on.

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624000#Comment_119624000

This is what gets me about the whole palaver - nobody actually knows what the Queen or any of the rest of them are actually like when have you genuinely seen them being themselves and going off script (charles' pen troubles this week aside). How can she be so "inspirational" when she has never said anything publicly that was non-scripted? Even the Irish shtick was written for her phonetically by Mary mcaleese, I've never gotten a clap for my ham-fisted "bon jure" when I'm on holiday in France I can tell you

"The queen" is no more than a carefully curated character for the plebs to fawn over while the Royal family maintain their privileged lifestyles. I salute her for enduring a life of boring platitudes and pointless ceremonies but that's about it

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624116#Comment_119624116

It's really mind-boggling that a bizarrely pointless and deliberately neutral position garners such respect. It just seems like a waste of a life to me, I wonder did she regret it at any stage?

pgj2015

It would be funny if some politician booed.

Pherekydes

What's the problem? Doesn't the Dáil start every session with a prayer at the behest of a foreign power?

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619684#Comment_119619684

Collins worked for the British postal service,

Dev signed a book of condolences to Germany on the death of hitler

Joyce spent most of his life away from Ireland.

grow up

or don't no one cares

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619797#Comment_119619797

i doubt he is old enough to sit a barstool

Lucy8080

Only the smell of a Nora Barnacle Fart can save this world from its constant hatreds and unforgiving spirit. I hope she does not follow through, we shall all have to start over again, me thinks!

Count Dracula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622278#Comment_119622278

You really should listen to yourself sometimes.

You will notice the dull excruciating drivel that spills out of you.

It is far from intoxicating. It has the texture of undiluted Miwadi that has been left to the wasps for a day in early September.

The rats sniff it, look around and walk on. It kind of reminds me of every time I read your disassociated mire disguised at an attempt on comment or viable opinion.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623791#Comment_119623791

Fairness. We get treated like shite. 20 odd years pass and we need to be mature and move on and pay respects to the figure head represents it all. I don't think that's fair myself.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624449#Comment_119624449

That's some loada attempted prose bollo my friend. Are you in first or second year at uni? You were waiting to use that, had it squirrelled away, didn't you?

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624000#Comment_119624000

There was never any conflict in her reign with the Irish state, yes many IRA members were from the Republic but there was no conflict with the state itself.

Civilians were murdered in her name. The culprits never punished, in her name. Her army assisted terrorists to murder civilians in her name. All while she was shaking hands and cutting ribbons. These are her own alledged subjects we're talking about. British people and at least one former British soldier that I know of.

3DataModem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619521#Comment_119619521

Why are we doing it? Because we are better than them. Also because we know that the crown is important to Irish people on this island. But most important, because we are better than them.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625597#Comment_119625597

the small amount of people on the island who the crown may be important to can morn themselves, the irish government should not be engaging in grand gestures in the name of the small amount of irish people on our island who it is important to, some of those people yearning to return the statelet they live in back to the sectarian statelet of 1921 to 1998.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627873#Comment_119627873

I suspect when Charlo gets into his stride with the newly rehabilitated Andy, we might be having a minutes silence for the death of the monarchy itself. Hopefully that will be an end to monarchy everywhere.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119628139#Comment_119628139

hard to know but i do hope so.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119628139#Comment_119628139

Andy isn't rehabilitated at all. Not allowed wear his shiny buttons uniform, only being allowed do anything just cause he's not actually in prison.

Charles has no interest in rehabilitating him; those chances died with Mama. Fade to total obscurity unless the tabloids and/or his own actions keep him relevant.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119628318#Comment_119628318

Disagree. He'll attempt to rehabilitate him by degrees. The first one being named as a stand in or whatever it was.

I will be amazed if Charlo hasn't the throne mired in controversy within a year. He will constantly be compared to his mother and come up well short.

Strumms

I’d say he’ll just keep his head down and do whatever is required of him in the role… he’s mid 70’s now and starting to look it…

I don’t think he’ll have the appetite to start revolutionising the monarchy. I’d say he’ll stick very much to the template that his old dear provided… turn up, smile, shake hands, look interested even if he isn’t and say all the right things when he needs to….

he might play up a little more to the cameras and be a bit freer with emotion and personality which has always been his way…

” ohhh jolly good, you erm, made an operating theatre out of Lego, however long did it take you ? Really ? My goodness, yes, yes, his foot felll off, poor fellow, he must feel like a bit of a brick, hah hah hah, right, next ! “

Feisar

Can anyone imagine if the Third Reich was still on the go and telling Jews to have a mature attitude, the past is the past and all that. As much as I admire the woman I cannot forget she was head of a regime that had us on our bellies for so long.

And OP, Dev isn't fit to be in the same sentence as Collins.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620625#Comment_119620625

Over 100 years ago seriously. You would want a degree to search through the archives to find a mention in Ireland Or the UK. The UK archives could have been bombed in the war. BBC world service may have something but no idea. Must have been deemed important enough by the Brits to send over a Minor royal.

Brid Hegarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058263392/wtf-a-minutes-silence-for-the-death-of-queen-elizabeth-in-the-dail-today-micheal-collins-and-dev

I don't think Michael Collins would actually be in favour of holding on to bitterness, and viewing the queen as an enemy. After all, he was a reasonable man... that's why he signed the treaty. You however, seem more like the sort who'd be on the other side of the civil war.

And Dev was the one who caused Collins to die. He sewed the seed for a civil war.

Riddle101

It was a small gesture of goodwill and a show of respect to our closest neighbor and I wouldn't expect any less from our Government. As for Collins and Develera turning in their grave, who knows what they might think now, but it doesn't really matter at this point, times are different now.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119629727#Comment_119629727

dev had no choice, collins went against him and signed a treaty creating one of the most sectarian, racist, failed states known to man.

a state who's creation is an empirialy motivated, sectaria agrevated hate crime, which was not created due to care about the unionist community, who are constantly thrown under the bus once finished being used for whatever purpose.

a treaty that has created 2 wars on this island, and which, if not signed would only have created one and all communities on this island would be now living together as has been and is the case in the south.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119631676#Comment_119631676

I thought a one country Ireland has never existed in history outside of being an Imperial colony. You would have to split the place up into kingdoms to create something that was similar before the british arrived. Are there any descendants left of the high kings ?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632470#Comment_119632470

no, a 1 country ireland has always existed but split into multiple kingdoms.

but it was all ultimately ireland.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632498#Comment_119632498

Ruled independently overseen by a high king so like the UK separate kingdoms. There were no parliaments or counties as we know them now. Entirely different. You want to continue to Have a state that was created artificially by a foreign power. Based on systems setup by that foreign power laws even. Counties setup by a foreign power.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119631676#Comment_119631676

Michael Collins got most of our country back, he got the best deal possible, Dev knew nothing better was on the table. It we left it to Dev all 32 counties might still be under UK rule today.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632509#Comment_119632509

different yes but still ultimately ireland in full.

i want ireland in full back, unpartitioned as it was until the hate crime treaty was forcibly signed via blackmail.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632573#Comment_119632573

it wasn't the best deal, he was blackmailed into signing it via the threat of violence, violence which happened anyway all be it in a different form.

he could have refused to sign it and we would have got the country back eventually as the IRA would have engaged in a continued campaign of violence and it would have been eventually unsustainable for britain to keep poring resources into it.

at worst we would have got it back by the 1950s.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632681#Comment_119632681

Not huge on Irish history not from here. But What was the country you refer to called. Not the land mass As IIRC that changed over time the actual country name. It's a bit like the Normans reappearing and wanting land back that no longer exists. Do the Vikings "Pick nordic country" have a claim ? Romans/Italians in the UK. Ireland only existed as an artificial state. Not trying to annoy anyone here but it's simple fact. What seems to be wanted is the Colony as it was set up. That was never part of the Republic of Ireland. Is Crimea Russian ?

Brid Hegarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632686#Comment_119632686

It is strongly suspected that Collins wanted to take the north by force, and he apparently made comments of such nature at the time. If the goal was to get all 32 counties, then the best way to go about it would be to let the treaty be a stepping stone towards the 32 counties. It was a miracle to get the 26 counties at that. And then instead fighting the British, they fought their own... thus making sure that the remaining 6 counties would never be got back.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632686#Comment_119632686

It was, and signing it meant less violence. Do you have any evidence to show that the other 6 counties was on the cards at the time?

You are now using your imagination rather than facts. Nobody knows whether or not we would of eventually got the 32 counties back, all we know for sure is lots more innocent people would of died in the attempt.

The facts say the English had a far superior army, its just as likely that all the future bloodshed could of been in vein

walshb

Collins and Dev were as eager as any Irish Nationalists to have a 32 counties one Ireland. They simply negotiated and compromised with the cards that were on the table 100 years ago.

anyway, it’s utter silly to be certain on how people from 100+ years ago would be feeling if they could see all that has happened since their times.

people live in the present. They can remember and discuss the past, live in the now and plan for the future.

in relation to this thread, it’s a very healthy sign of our country and its attitude to our neighbour, a neighbour that we have have been through so much with; good, bad and ugly. But by god, at least today and recently we have some semblance of harmony and peace. And not warring, killing and insane hostility. In saying and knowing this, a minute’s silence here should be viewed as nothing but another positive and mature and caring statement in how we progress further.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633249#Comment_119633249

letting the treaty be a stepping stone failed, so that was a stupid method.

fighting the british would have got us the 32 around the 1950s because the british were bankrupt and were unable to sustain the empire much longer.

we will get the 6 back, that is not in doubt, but we could have had it decades ago and there would be no issues on the island now.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633268#Comment_119633268

the signing of the treaty caused more violence, the civil war and the liberation of northern ireland war.

the british had a far superior army yet they were forced out of india, forced out of africa and were brought to a stailmate in northern ireland, with more resources on the irish side they would have been eventually forced out because they were bankrupt after the war and squandered the martial aid money.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633302#Comment_119633302

more like an insecure statement in the aim of looking for a pat on the head from the british and a pat on the back from unionists.

nonsense like this is not maturity or caring.

send a letter of condolence is enough.

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632681#Comment_119632681

Take you also want to get rid of the county system, and return to using Gaelic? Or does your love of Ireland only go back to a certain time period?

The holy grail of internet warriors, a single unified happy happy Ireland was never an option. There was always going to be a civil war post any form of independence, either between pro/anti treaty or unionist/republican.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619599#Comment_119619599

We did actually!

After Germany surrendered DeValera would not allow the British or Americans

to enter the German Embassy until after he had visited them.

I'm sure that gave them enough time to destroy what they had to!

To be fair it only right whatever the previous history between both countries.

We can't live in the past & I'm not suggesting that we forget the past but move on!

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633779#Comment_119633779

It didn't, we've lived mostly in peace for the last few decades and the lives of those in the Republic improved. Also the Irish army wasn't all that impressive compared to how well trained the English were. Most Irish people don't have an appetite for committing horrible murders

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633814#Comment_119633814

The whole protocol surrounding things like a minutes silence or lowering a flag to half mast is actually very informal. Those who oppose it are probably reading way too much into it. The Dáil for example can hold a minutes silence for the passing of anyone they deem fit - criticising it seems extremely petty.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633814#Comment_119633814

irrelevant waffle.

being against simpering westbrit nonsense is not living in the past and there is nothing to move on from.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633831#Comment_119633831

yes it did, 2 wars on the island would have been 1 had reunification happened and it would have been over by the 50s, 60s in the absolute worst case.

again dispite it's superiority, the british army were forced out of many countries in the 50s and 60s and even before.

the lives of the irish would have improved more had the treaty not been signed because the orange statelet would never have been created.

maceoin.D.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632686#Comment_119632686

You're not taking into account what would have likely transpired over those 30 odd years. That was the first rebellion to get anything put on the table, don't forget, and although the IRA are not the give up type, you cannot expect to sustain another 30 years of pressure with lads being put to the firing squad left right and centre. By the time the fifties rolled around, you could have had no revolutionaries left, and a bunch of gombeens in a pro-Brit government conscripting the younger generations to go off and fight WW2 for the British, and getting used as cannon fodder. That's if the deal wasn't taken when it was offered, so after Dev's more peaceful solution was not an option.

I don't think Dev was the worst lad from the start, but he seemed to let his ego get the better of him with Collins going off and making things happen on his own agenda. I believe Dev wanted the political revolution to be remembered as his. Collins' fighting may have gotten in the way of something better from a political perspective, and so Dev was pissed off that he ended up with the treaty as well- and all the glory despite being just a minister who caused a lot of 'mayhem' and not the republican governments leader.

It might not have seemed like the best deal, but it may have been. If we gave the Brits the option of more fighting, they likely would have been able to stop the rebellion and install new people everywhere to try and force people to settle down. Their only real worry would have been whether or not they would get it done before WW2, which was as nailed on as they come after WW1. If they did, then I don't want to think of how bad things would have been for the lads who had to go off and fight WW2.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633894#Comment_119633894

Your labeling anyone a Westbrit because they don’t hold near the level animosity and hostility towards a neighbour is exactly the attitude and view that will see you never getting what you want. Even SF realise that times have moved on, and that all sides need to do things that aren’t directly in line with their agenda and end goal.

divsive and hostile polarising rhetoric rarely gets results, and never harmonises.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119631676#Comment_119631676

Oh Dev had a choice alright. Go over to London and do the treaty himself. He didn't because he know what was the best deal and it was the one Collins got. He had a choice of looking at it rationally and starting the war but he didn't. In the end it is what he signed up to