Airing cupboard bonding etc.

NickNickleby

Hello All,

Here I am again with wiring questions. Rest assured, I'm not a messer, so wont be trying to do electrical DIY, I just want to understand a couple of things. I'll be getting some major electrical work done in the Spring. I'm already wondering about how wires might be run round the house, given that MrsN is unfamiliar with the concept of breaking eggs to make an omelette. I'd say any of you guys doing domestic work will have encountered the old "What?? You'll be making holes in x,y or z?"

Anyway, here we go... 1971 semi.

When bonding kitchen and bathroom, is it permitted to to connect said bonding to the nearest earth connection in a nearby socket?

Same question for the airing cupboard. (which is how its currently done, ie the earth/bonding wire is connected to the earth pin in a socket in the bedroom). Also, the airing cupboard contains immersion heater, alarm box and heating control box. I hope to God they don't have to be moved.

My lights are wired by daisy-chaining the live from switch to switch and the neutrals are daisy-chained from ceiling rose to ceiling rose. Will that have to be upgraded to some new-fangled wiring scheme? There are 2 circuits - upstairs and down. I say this because......

ALL my sockets are on a single ring main - apart from the kitchen which is a 2.5mm radial. The cooker cct is 4 mm2 (but its only feeding the electrics on a gas cooker).

Aren't all new installs done with new cables, with a covered earth wire which has to be the same cross section as the live/neutral ? Also, are new installs all radials? If so, how many, eg my living room has 4 double sockets, dining room 2 doubles (but might add more), conservatory 3 doubles, bedrooms 3 doubles in each. Its a lot of sockets, but the biggest draw is the big tv in the living room with dvd and sat box. after that its LED table lamps and a radio, plus roving vacuum cleaner. I think more circuits is better, so that a failure (eg MCB trip) limits the disruption. Apart from the space in the distribution board, is there any other consideration?

As far as I know, there's no earth rod here. What I think confirms this, is that many neighbours have had new earth rods installed - why? I looked under the floor boards in the hall and cannot see an earth wire going anywhere.

I suppose any electrician will plan routes taking potential disruption (of the cosmetic variety) into consideration. But being a busy body, I'll be able to tell him (or her) PRECISELY where every joist/rafter/nail/pipe and cable run is at the moment.

So, I'd appreciate any comments here - I want to prepare MrsN for the likely destruction that will be involved. She thinks I'm over thinking it.

We're in our 60's now, so this is the big, never to be repeated, future proof, all encompassing installation. I'm furiously buying lottery tickets🤣.

Cheers!

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058264646/airing-cupboard-bonding-etc

When bonding kitchen and bathroom, is it permitted to to connect said bonding to the nearest earth connection in a nearby socket

For the Kitchen yes that is OK but not for the bathroom and certainly not for the pipes in your hotness. They should be done in 10mm sq earth cable and earthed straight back to the main consumer unit.

As for the Units you have in the Hotpress it really depends on the size of it but it's very likely that they will have to be moved as they could be a fire hazard there.

I have never heard of an Alarn Box un the Hotpress. Is it a big room?

It should be OK either way. Its fuse spur might need moving do if it has one.

When you say heating control box is it just a box with wires connected in it or is it an immersion switch and a timer etc? If so they more than likely will have to be moved but if its just a plastic box with wires going into connectors they should be fine.

Aren't all new installs done with new cables, with a covered earth wire which has to be the same cross section as the live/neutral ? Also, are new installs all radials?

Yes the earth in all cables is the same as the live/Nuetral in that they are covered and the same size now. More craziness.

Yes they are. Dam stupid. But that's the way it's gone. They was nothing wrong with the good old fashioned ring circuit I say.

My lights are wired by daisy-chaining the live from switch to switch and the neutrals are daisy-chained from ceiling rose to ceiling rose. Will that have to be upgraded to some new-fangled wiring scheme?

It's called looped lives and the Neutrals are looped at the lights.

It means less cables at the lights as its just two neutrals and a switch wire.

The other way to do it is to loop a brown and blue around at all the room lights and take a strapper cable also known as twin brown cable from the light down to the switch for the live and switch wire at the switch. It makes the switch easier but more cables at the light. It's OK if it's a standard ceiling rose but a nightmare if you want any fancy lights up instead.

Also your bathroom will have to be wired separately from the other lights now and on its own RCBO. In Fact I think all light circuits go on RCBOs now.

As far as I know, there's no earth rod here. What I think confirms this, is that many neighbours have had new earth rods installed - why? I looked under the floor boards in the hall and cannot see an earth wire going anywhere.

Very important to get one of them in so your house is earthed.

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119657816#Comment_119657816

Hi AMKC, thanks for taking the trouble to reply.

I got new heating a few years ago, and the airing cupboard was stripped bare. The plumber asked why we didn't put a shower in there!!

The heating control box is a Honeywell controller with low voltage connections to a valve beside the hot tank, and the user panel in the hall. Its connected to the mains and sends mains voltage to the boiler in the kitchen. The fused spur is beside it, same for the alarm box.

Just thought of something.... do sockets and switches have to be at a particular height now? Something to do with facilitating wheelchair users? Currently (ha ! a pun) my sockets are about 20cm above the skirting, and light switches at about shoulder height. Which works just fine for us.

AMKC

Just thought of something.... do sockets and switches have to be at a particular height now? Something to do with facilitating wheelchair users?

The switches are at a height of 1 meter 20 now yes to facilitate wheelchair users.

Yes it takes a little while go get used to but you do eventually get used to it and wonder why it was not always like that. I woukd say mainly because back in the 60s 70s or way before no power tools do do anything so it was all done by manual labour even in the 90s I remember some of the chasing for switches, sockets etc having to be done with a chisel and a lump Hammer.

The sockets have to be at least 12 inches up from the floor. We normally put them at 18inches as it's a nice height to have them at.

Before that there was a danger they could catch fire or an appliance plugged into them could catch fire. It can of course still happen if a socket is overloaded or a plug loose but as long as the wiring is good it's less likely with RCDs and RCBOs now protecting them. Before when everything was on fuses it was a lot more likely to happen as slower to act than a normal trip switch like now.

NickNickleby

Plenty of food for thought in your posts, I appreciate it, thanks. I was talking to MrsN this morning about this. She says she understands there'll be some disruption. Hahahhaha, NO, she doesn't. I'd say we have very different definitions of 'disruption'. Anyway, I'll not frighten her off. I want this done once and done right, whatever it takes.

JL spark

New regs don’t require a bond at kitchen sink , same with hotpress unless the pipe work is going out side into the ground and it’s a copper pipe

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119659293#Comment_119659293

Thanks for the reply JL.

In my airing cupboard, the hot tank is connected to the heating pipes (via the coil). The heating pipes are connected to the boiler, the boiler is connected to the copper gas pipe and the gas pipe is connected to the outside meter, which in turn is connected to a plastic gas main. The hot tank also has an immersion, with an earth. So, essentially, the only route to earth is via the immersion earth, or the bonding if the continuity is good (don't ask - after my last heating install I've been a little wary of the electrical parts of the installation).

The whole point of this exercise is to try to identify routes for cabling in advance of any survey, because I know the under floors and above ceilings so intimately.🤣, NOT because I'm the type to try to tell someone how to do their job. My living room in particular will offer challenges as there's a very nice floor laid, and its not meant to be lifted. Heigh-ho. It'll be bad enough persuading SWMBO to shell out for a rewire, but adding a new floor as well 😲.

JL spark

Your gas boiler needs a 10sq earth bond direct to board ,

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119660080#Comment_119660080

😲

Was this a requirement 10 years ago?

I paid a lot of money 10 years ago, getting the complete heating system replaced, ripping out ALL the plumbing, to make sure I ended up with a new up-to-spec system. This was a well known Gas Registered company. I know for certain, such a bonding is not in place. There's an earth from the heating control board.

So, yet another requirement for whoever ends up taking it on!!

So already my visit here is paying dividends. Thanks folks.

Antenna

Quote: "Yes the earth in all cables is the same as the live/Neutral in that they are covered and the same size now. More craziness."

Why didn't this requirement get introduced in the UK also???

the UK would be considered as having amongst the highest electrical safety standards in the world ??

A view is probably taken in the UK that with the greatly increased use of RCDs, an RCD will disconnect the circuit immediately anyway with a L-E fault, regardless of the differing size of earth conductor between the two standards.

In times past, before RCDs etc existed or were common place, such a measure would have had more merit - it could have helped 'speed up' the blowing of fuses when such a fault happens (fuses do not act as quick as MCBs/RCDs)

kirk.

I'm going a bit rusty on this stuff but the UK relies more on testing or proving there's a requirement for a particular measure

Extraneous pipework you they would test to prove it requires bonding, IR between pipework and MET

CPC size don't think there's any need for it if I'm not mistaken