Irish Under-20's 2023

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120768791#Comment_120768791

Yeah, I'm not arguing against using the subs. Generally, I would think it makes sense to replace players who look tired.

But, a big caveat, is that Richie Murphy is better equipped to evaluate that. He knows what he thinks he's gaining by bringing on the fresher legs and what he feels he'd be losing in terms of taking off the player, and he made the call.

This point on subs in games is not connected to the wider point about player development IMO, it's purely a game management decision.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120768302#Comment_120768302

Yeah, Sheridan was 2021. As was Postlethwaite and Ben Moxham, who has quietly racked up 28 senior appearances.

ulsteru20s

I think the one thing i’d add to this is that there are guys on this team like nicholson, cawley and lynch who need exposure to get contract offers from other provinces or maybe outside ireland.

I’d lean into making sure that if those guys earn a bench spot, that they get a real run out in the game..15-20 minutes.

I know its an integrated system and every academy director knows what it happening in training and probably has talked to Murphy, but still..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769050#Comment_120769050

Nah, disagree again. It's not Murphy's concern at all whether these players get academy contracts or not, and it's not his concern to put them in the shop window.

He's just going to pick the best available 23 to him on a game by game basis and use it as he sees fit. Anything else is silly, diminishes the value of these caps and unfair to the rest of the team.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769060#Comment_120769060

He already picked them in the best 23 and didn’t play them. That’s bad coaching. Also, flogging future elite players in a meaningless tourney is also bad coaching.

Why in any universe would any u20 front row need to play more than 60 minutes for their development for example? How does that help them?

Edit; or barely played them in Nicholson’s case.

theVersatile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769060#Comment_120769060

The goal of the Irish 20s is to produce senior international and provincial players. It's a pathway team at the end of the day (albeit at the more elite end of the pathway). Getting as many of these players playing professionally should very much be Murphy's concern.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120768990#Comment_120768990

Yep! So that year could possibly be a great year, production wise!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769214#Comment_120769214

Nah this notion is completely misguided. If these guys are good enough they’ll get the opportunities and get contracts.

There are plenty of opportunities for them to put their hands up between provincial underage sides, AIL etc.

If guys haven’t earned the minutes at this level then they shouldn’t get them - simple as that, as right now Richie Murphy is the arbiter of whether they’ve earned them or not.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769085#Comment_120769085

I’m not claiming he’s leaving these players in the field “for their development” that’s you and others claiming that. He’s leaving them out there because he’s judging them better options in that scenario than the alternatives.

You’re free to consider it bad coaching all you like, but the guy has won back to back Grand Slams so I’ve more faith in his judgment than yours tbh.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769391#Comment_120769391

Awesome, Richie Murphy’s CV is more important than player development or health.

This is like high school coaches having 17 year olds throw 130 pitches. State titles baby.

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769379#Comment_120769379

In fairness you could make the case that those players are better off training in a well coached environment, than they would be getting more minutes in the Scottish setup for example. It would be nice to get those guys some tape to use to try get a contract, but do agree that specifically is not within Murphy's remit.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769440#Comment_120769440

Why not just pick 23 random lads aged 18-20 for every game so and throw them out there?

Maximum development minutes for all.

This place gets more and more ridiculous.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769500#Comment_120769500

You are so full of it.

You know exactly what i mean. U20 front rows do not need to be playing more than 60 minutes in any game. Paddy McCarthy absolutely does not need to keep playing after he picked up a head knock even if he passes the protocol especially as it happened at a time when front rows usually come off anyway. All the subs should be used in almost every game. All the subs should get decent time.

These are small things that should be standard in any age grade development environment. Your arguments against this are just nonsensical. This implied argument that winning is all important at this level is bullshit.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769526#Comment_120769526

So you’re lambasting the coach over selection decisions in this specific game and that means it’s “bad coaching” and it’s stunting the development of other players?

Would it actually have been better in your view if we got 20 mins of rugby into 2 or 3 different players but lost the game? That argument is nonsensical to me too.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769550#Comment_120769550

Well done not directly addressing the things i said.

They are quite hard to argue with individually aren’t they? Lol.

Its better for their health not to play those minutes with another game in 5 days especially. Its better for the subs development to get 15/20 minutes. I don’t really care about the result compared to those two factors.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769569#Comment_120769569

Where have I once not addressed specific points raised?

You’re the one having a little rant here about Richie Murphy, dressed up in a veil of faux concern for the development of a few players, and now, even more originally, faux concern for the health of the players involved.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769611#Comment_120769611

Sure, and your argument is that they win at an age grade level so everything they do is justified.

Fuck off with your faux concern bs. You just don’t have an actual argument beyond ‘but they win’. Calling someone’s argument ‘faux’ because you have decided it is so, is not a **** argument.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769621#Comment_120769621

Aww, did you get a bit upset there and throw a bit of a tantrum?

Whats your issue exactly then, because it isn’t clear anymore beyond having a bit of whine?

We’ll know in a few years if Murphy is developing enough players at this level but early signs are good.

Pointing out that they’ve won back to back Grand Slams would be most reasonable people’s response to your accusations of “bad coaching”.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769671#Comment_120769671

I literally wrote what my issue was two comments ago. Here it is again. Tell me why i’m wrong point by point without saying ‘but we win’.

U20 front rows do not need to be playing more than 60 minutes in any game.

Paddy McCarthy absolutely does not need to keep playing after he picked up a head knock even if he passes the protocol especially as it happened at a time when front rows usually come off anyway.

All the subs should be used in almost every game.

All the subs should get decent time.

Go ahead. If your argument is that they win, explain exactly why that would be the benchmark for age grade development teams, in detail.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769689#Comment_120769689

I disagree with you on every point.

There is absolutely no hard and fast rule for player selection or how a team uses its bench in any game. It’s at the discretion of the coach. He’s paid to make those decisions.

I agree with you I don’t think it’s ideal to have front rowers playing 70+ minutes, but the coaching team will make a call on that.

Disagree that you should use all your bench all the time - once again, play it by ear. See how it’s evolving, and make the decision. There’s judgment involved in this, there’s no set rules or restrictions around it.

He has two goals - to develop players and to succeed at that level, and I would argue he’s doing a good job on both fronts, even if he’s not giving minutes to the guys you would like him to select.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769717#Comment_120769717

So your argument is that he is the coach and he wins so he is right.

You don’t actually have any reason beyond that to refute anything including keeping guys on to the 70th minute after a head knock that you yourself on tv noticed had effected his performance. In a U20 match. Fair enough.

theVersatile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769379#Comment_120769379

As much as AIL fanatics would love for it to be true, elite coaches don't make their decisions for pro rugby based off league performances. They do it from these international competitions - with very few exceptions (Neil Cronin, par example).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769500#Comment_120769500

I think you know there's a difference between "each of the best 33 players (or even 23 players in this instance" should get their chance" and "lets throw out Old Crescent U20s for the laugh".

The fact that you've also construed these critiques as a vendetta against Richie Murphy is equally strange.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769745#Comment_120769745

No, my argument is that I’m not as well informed as he is as to the physical and mental condition of his own players. He’s getting actual data and feedback from other coaches and medical professionals, which is far more informative than what you or I see on TV.

You’re free to disagree with decisions he made, but this thing of claiming there should be some copperfastened rules in place that front row players should only play x minutes and all subs must be used etc is something more akin to U12s rugby than U20s rugby and does nothing for the development of players.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769783#Comment_120769783

Ah, i guess you were mistaken. His performance didn’t suffer after his head knock. Lol.

Podge_irl

MOD: FTD and ulsteru20s - Drop the bickering or take it pm. Discuss the content of posts not perceived motivation of posters

ulsteru20s

I’m happy to drop it.

It is quite a corner to put yourself in though. If you can’t have a valid criticism of a u20 coach because of lack of direct knowledge of what goes into their decision making, then that applies to every signing, every decision, everything by every team. It kind of puts you in a tough spot if you want to express any actual opinions on a message board.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769671#Comment_120769671

I think he's done very well. Not every squad member will make the cut. I don't rate Nicholson, I think he's slow and has poor lateral movement. But, he could be picked up by Ulster or Connacht and he mat turn out to be good.

Dubinusa

Looking at hooker for next year. There's Solomon from Ulster, who I like! Clean from Munster. Yarr, who is ok. I haven't been impressed with him. There's a lad a St. Michael's who looks good. Some of these boys won't make it! It's a pity but those are the breaks.

I read somewhere that Jackman thinks next years edition will be better! I wouldn't bet on it. Besides Gleeson and O'Connell, there's no one that I've seen that's nearly as good. Who knows?

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769893#Comment_120769893

Smyth looks really good. I don’t think Clein will be there next year but sheahan will be.

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769893#Comment_120769893

Unless there's a Premdergast tier prospect at 10 in the next crop, I'd be surprised. But Jackman knows his stuff so we shall see.