Court summons questions - Vehicle owner allow learner driver use vehicle unaccompanied

Hotblack Desiato

Two fairly pointless responses tbh

1. Everything expressed on a discussion board is by definition an opinion.
2. "If you find fault with it it's because you don't understand it." 🙄

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119795506#Comment_119795506

I wasn't so much pointing out that "this is your opinion" as pointing out that "this is your opinion". You object to the presumption of innocence. You say that criminal justice systems which incorporate that presumption and require guilt to be, you know, actually proven with evidence are "a farce".

That's a fairly extreme opinion. The significant word there is not "opinion"; it's "extreme".

Hotblack Desiato

That's some quite bizarre fantastical nonsense you have constructed out of thin air there.

What was being spoken about bears no relation to that at all. It's about people being advised to get a solicitor who "knows the judge" etc. to get away with an offence they admit they committed.

It's barely a step above the gross abuse of the poor box we (used to?) have.

"Sure motoring offences aren't really offences at all, if nobody got killed (this time) what's the harm really" is the unspoken attitude among the public. The post I was originally responding to described allowing someone to use a motor vehicle they are not licensed or insured to drive as a "bullshit charge". So we can have no surprises really when this attitude leads to causing death by dangerous driving being treated as trivial enough to justify nothing more than a €500 fine.

randomstuff

Hi all, thank you for all the replies and tips.

Had the court on Friday. Case was struck out after I showed the judge that my wife has acquired a full license since the offence.

Didn't end up going for solicitor - rang around a few of them, gave them full details, and in all the cases, solicitors told me theres no chance of it getting struck out. Additionally they were going to charge me 400-750. I asked them what is the 'max' penalty/punishment that I can get from this charge... They all started talking about how 'its unlikely you will get points or loose license' ... When I reverted back to them, that I read the section of the RTA ( https://revisedacts.lawreform.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/35A/revised/en/html ) and that from my understanding the max penalty I can get is a 1k fine.... in all cases they panicked and said something along the lines of... 'oh thats why you hire a solicitor' 🙄

Luckily I have some legal advice available from work - so got confirmation on above (that max fine is 1k) from an unbiased solicitor.

The solicitors I rang, shot themselves in the foot really - if they would of told me that they can get it struck out for 500, I would of gladly paid it.

It was an experience in the court - big variety of cases from some cyclist running a red light... to people being brought out by gardai, charged with no insurance/nct/tax but waiting on being sentenced for some other charge 20-25 years 😬

Overall the buildup to it was most stressfull thing about this whole experience. I feel this sort of charge should be handled out of court with some flat fine and thats it.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119840069#Comment_119840069

I did say the judge would look in you favourably if you showed them the full licence, wouldn't happen again, yada yada yada. Glad it worked out for you.

Deusexmachina

Good result

EuCitizen07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119840069#Comment_119840069

Kindly share what was your defence statement ? How did they serve you the summons? Did you get Fixed Charge Notice before you recieved the summons? I am in same situation as my partner was stoped driving unaccompained and she got pentalty points and fine was paid.car was relaesed after paying the relevent fees and producing required documents. Now As i was the owner of the vehicle for insurance purposes, DPP got the summons issued from the district court and need to appaer in the court for alleged offence of allowing the learner permit holder to drive unaccompained although in reality she suppose to go along with her friend from the neighbourhood(Full licence holder) to drop the kids to the birthday party nearby as i was unwell and minding the other childrens at home.I was under the impression she would be accompanied by the other person but due to the change in seating pattern she ended up being driving herself in car with the kid.rest is history.Please share your thoughts what i should do.Thanks

randomstuff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108150#Comment_121108150

Hi there. I let the judge talk it out really. He didn't even know this charge is possible - he asked the gardai what is this charge for? Since car had nct, tax and insurance was good. He also mentioned it could be a case of double jeopardy, since husband/wife is seen as 1 in court and we already paid the fine that my wife got + penalty points on her license. For my defense, I said that my wife has since gotten a full license, and then he struck it out.

My wife got her fine and points in mail first, then few months later I got summons in mail under my name.

Make sure to be prepared - dress smart, show courtesy to judge and have all docs prepared - the fine you paid for impound, the fine you paid for wifes FCN, and her penalty points, insurance detailing that you and her were insured, car was taxed, ncted etc.

I think it's reasonable to argue that you, as owner of car, didn't know that she was driving alone as you said in your post... But if you get a good judge on the day I don't think you'll have to go there even. Most likely judge will be annoyed with the gardai for wasting their time 😅

Hotblack Desiato

funny country when prosecuting someone for an offence they committed is wasting a judge's time.

jippo nolan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108707#Comment_121108707

Did the Judge ask could he try on the Garda’s cap?

randomstuff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108791#Comment_121108791

When the offence you are being prosecuted for doesn't make sense to the judge... What would you call that?

randomstuff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108847#Comment_121108847

?? Sorry don't get it...

AmpMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108791#Comment_121108791

The pair of them should have spent a few nights in the joy for this heinous crime.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108929#Comment_121108929

I’d call it a judge that failed to keep up with legislation.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108929#Comment_121108929

Judicial incompetence

CoBo55

The Judge saw it for what it was, much ado about nothing, the woman had since passed her driving test, she was insured at the time, taxed and tested had received the required penalty points and paid the fine, he did what any sensible person would and dismissed the remainder.

Hotblack Desiato

Driving a vehicle without a valid licence is a serious offence, allowing a vehicle to be so used is also. So what if she passed her test since, if I was stopped with no insurance but bought a policy before the court date would that be grand too?

BTW as she wasn't validly licensed then her insurance was invalid also

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121110266#Comment_121110266

She wasn't insured if she was driving unaccompanied. You don't get insurance cover to drive illegally. Driving within the law is a condition of your insurance.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121110302#Comment_121110302

Rubbish, this tripe gets trotted out all the time. Why wasn't she done for no insurance then? Because she was insured.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121110826#Comment_121110826

Rubbish absolute rubbish...

EuCitizen07

Thanks for the prompt response.

kindly advise me that how did you proceed?

did you pleaded guilty and than put your points forwarded or you didn’t pleaded guilty and then responded accordingly.

I am sorry for pushing it further but I am very concerned as any fine or conviction would have great impact on my livelihood.

plaese explain as much as possible so I can act accordingly

thanks

Eggs For Dinner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111166#Comment_121111166

Rubbish. Read your policy, in conjunction with your certificate. Also, an innocent 3rd party being compensated by your insurer in the event of an accident does not mean you have cover in place

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111166#Comment_121111166

Interesting.

• Allowing an unauthorised driver to operate your vehicle.

I suspect most motor insurance policies have declarations that drivers agree to, including that the person driving has a valid license and is legally allowed to drive it.

https://missquote.ie/blog/post/what-invalidates-car-insurance#

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121110266#Comment_121110266

the 'ah sure it's grand' approach to road policing in ireland. the roads are barely policed as it is, and when a garda catches someone red handed, the judge allows it. and we wonder why the gardai are not fussed about roads policing.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111163#Comment_121111163

Have a read of your policy sometime, it's there in black and white.

Why wasn't she prosecuted? ask the Gardai and DPP but imo she should have been.

People who do this are taking the piss, it needs to be stopped.

Peregrinus

She was charged for driving without a licence. That necessarily also involves driving without insurance, but it's not the practice to charge a second offence when both offences are constituted by exactly the same conduct. It's a principle of legality that it's unfair and oppressive to punish someone twice for the same conduct. If you were to be charged with two offences for the same conduct, you'd almost certainly only be convicted of one or, if convicted of both, only sentenced for one.

If I deliberately run you over in my car because I want to cause you harm, that ticks all the boxes for the elements of offences of murder and manslaughter and causing death by dangerous driving. But I won't be convicted of all three offences; just of one. Same principle.

Hotblack Desiato

Seems odd that because you're committed an offence which usually has a lower punishment, you can't be charged with the other offence you committed which usually has a higher punishment

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112499#Comment_121112499

There was some talk last week of changing that approach for drivers, and charging them with ALL offences that apply.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112499#Comment_121112499

Driving without a licence and driving without insurance attract the same statutory penalty (a maximum of a €5000 fine and five penalty points).

If the offences attract different penalties, you'll usually be charged with the one that attracts the higher sentence.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699003#Comment_119699003

Is it a pending prosecution ?

Insurers always ask that question anyhow

randomstuff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111693#Comment_121111693

I don't remember exactly what I plead, was quite a stressful time, with lots of emotions but... I think guilty. To quote another poster in this thread

"The best advice to take here on the internet is to not take advice here on the internet."

Please seek out a solicitor if you are unsure.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111959#Comment_121111959

That is a prohibited condition and can't be used to avoid a claim from a third party. All that is required is that there is insurance in place to compensate third parties.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112614#Comment_121112614

Both offences are usually charged if there is evidence they were committed. The judge will usually impose a fine on one and take the other into account.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112614#Comment_121112614

In theory

In practice driving without insurance seems to be treated more harshly (unless your lack of licence was due to disqualification)

Seems some judges still don't treat LP violations seriously - but it is unlicensed driving. Just because it was tolerated here for decades didn't make it right.

In this thread we've seen twice now drivers which were both unlicensed and uninsured but only charged with being unlicensed (and that not really being taken seriously enough, at that).

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112630#Comment_121112630

They do. But the post you were replying to was about a case struck out, so prosecution failed.

Eggs For Dinner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112928#Comment_121112928

The 3rd party has to be compensated by the insurer, due to legislation. However, this doesn't mean 'cover'is in place and indemnity provided. This gives the insurer the right to recover their outlay from the policyholder

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121113135#Comment_121113135

As with nearly all offences, the legislation sets out a maximum penalty. The penalty that is actually applied in any particular case is decided by the court in the light of the particular circumstances of the case, and different penalties are applied in different cases.

In general, the courts will treat more leniently —

— driving without insurance, where the lack of insurance is a consequence of the (usually not premeditated) breach of a policy condition, as opposed to cases where you have simply failed to effect or renew insurance;

— driving without a licence, where the lack of a licence is a consequence of the (usually not premeditated) breach of a licence condition, as opposed to cases where you have simply failed to get a licence, or have been disqualified.

In the circumstances of this case, if the defendant had been charged with driving without insurance, I don't think they would got a more severe penalty. They had actually effected a policy and paid the premium, and that usually makes a big difference in sentencing.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121117152#Comment_121117152

All that is required by law is that there is a policy in force by which an injured thrid party will be compensated. there is such a policy. The fact that there is a breach of contract by the policyholder is irrelevant. The injured party will be compensated, that is the whole point of it.

Eggs For Dinner

The policy can be voided for breach of contract conditions, meaning no cover is in place. The 3rd party will be compensated, as I previously stated.