Delay in State exam results.

political analyst

There is still no date for publication of Junior Cert results. The Leaving Cert results were published this year much later than in previous years.

Is the decrease of the number of teachers willing to mark State exams because of the pandemic? If it is, then how, given that there were no exams at all in 2020? Does this crisis call the viability of the State exam system into question?

am_zarathustra

The primary reason is the reordering of the exam process, it got muddied in with covid, 2019 results were quite late (october anyway). It used to go LC results, JC results, then Appeals. The case taken around the college entry of those who were upgraded after the appeals and their start dates meant this was changed. So this year it was LC results, messing with them to hit some imagined curve, then Appeals and finally JC. It's not as time sensitive so it's been kicked to the end. Will be the same next year probably with the changes post correcting but the year after it will go back to the first week in october roughly.

SEC, like many agencys, also didn't keep seasonal staff during covid so a lot of them got other jobs and didn't return. I'd imagine they lost a decent amount of expertise. Even the messing with exam papers not being in school ect would not have happened 5 years ago.

dory

Plan is to just hope people forget about the JC results soon. Then they can just quietly never mention them again.

Icsics

The downgrading of the JC has been staggering. First we had the ill advised CBAs, common level papers, 1 exam paper etc etc, then it was cancelled during Covid, this barely made the news. And now we don’t even have a date for results. Just goes to show, everyone knows it’s a meaningless exercise now

2011abc

And they are about to clone this and rebadge as Leaving Cycle :-(

Treppen

At this stage they can repackage whatever they want, cos they'll do it anyway. But whatever happens we must insist on not making our own students for state certification.

I presume it's SEC all the way for 5th year LC exams yes?

gaiscioch

I had totally and honestly forgotten about the JC results, even though I had classes sitting it. It's a joke assessment, an irrelevancy of immense proportions other than the damage it is doing by sidelining the role of knowledge in the school assessment system. The huge battle in trying to raise the academic ability and standards of students when they enter 5th year is recurrently despairing. It's a rescue mission, every year, to introduce all those 5th years to academically challenging work - e.g. to write a six-page, fact-filled, chronologically coherent essay in 40 minutes - after the damage of the waffle, buzzword, mind-numbingly doltish, vacuous, box-ticking exercise that is the Junior Cycle - where the most intellectually challenging endeavour is a 15-line account of some historical figure.

Solution? Watch our geniuses in the NCCA and Dept of Education lower the academic standard of the LC rather than raise the standard of the JC. So, everybody can be a "winner" because knowledge is reputedly no longer important.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704871#Comment_119704871

The reordering shouldn't make much of a difference. It might delay the publishing of the results by a week or two but if there was enough examiners the papers would be marked in the summer and it would just be a case of inputting the results. Almost everything for LC is marking online to the best of my knowledge so marks are already in the system. A teacher I'm working with has signed up to mark JC papers this week.

Rosita

Yes, as per last post, I know of two teachers who got phone calls in the last week asking them to mark JC papers, so that obviously is the direct reason for not having results.

Maybe the LC had a impact, and maybe the LC appeals made a difference, but had they been able to recruit sufficient correctors in the first place the results would have been out at the usual time.

The teachers I spoke to refused on the basis that they were busy working in school at the moment and there was also a reluctance to mark the type of stuff on the new JC anyway. They certainly have managed to diminish beyond recognition what was a decent and worthwhile exam just to say they brought in "reform".

am_zarathustra

Is it an issue with scanning papers or are these hard copy subjects they are being asked to do? It's seems insane really. Different subjects are more or less attractive. I know one subject where several teachers who've done one year would never go back because of how AEs treated them, whereas in my subject I've had nothing but very positive experiences. I wonder if you looked at the subjects that are still not corrected would they be in those areas.

I know in 2019 it was the first week on October I think but we had the date well in advance. This seems like we are heading towards after Halloween at this stage.

Lack of correctors is an issue for sure, especially at JC level. There would often have been a fair amount of young teachers doing it not getting paid in the summer so the old advance was a great thing for them (myself included at the start of my career). The new one is barely worth paying. If I'm asked I'd say to only do it if its LC and the pay per paper makes sense, you'd be better off doing July provision, exams superintending or summer camps as opposed to correcting the new JC papers for buttons and getting little thanks.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119717245#Comment_119717245

The JC's downgrading isn't exactly a surprise, given that very few secondary pupils leave school immediately after the JC.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119720301#Comment_119720301

Who or what are AEs?

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119721573#Comment_119721573

Advising examiners, who you report to if your correcting the state exams.

wildwillow

Way back in 1970 the Inter Cert, as it was called, results were delayed to mid October. By then they were mostly irrelevant to me and anyone else proceeding to the Leaving but a problem for early school leavers. There are fewer early leavers now so maybe not as important.

But it is still not fair on the students to have such a long wait.

am_zarathustra

A date of any kind would actually help, even if it was November, would allow a trip or bit of a celebration to be organized which would be nice!

spurious

While not many students leave school these days before Junior Cert., it was still an important way back into education for many people who did. Not any more.

The JC 'reform' completely ignored any of the non-standard candidates - those children with disabilities who used to sit two or three subjects a year; those in youth detention centres; prisons; certain special primary schools; adults returning to education etc..

Bananaleaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732272#Comment_119732272

This completely.

Exams are not all corrected yet, as has been mentioned before. People I know are still getting calls. It's mad to think that in 8 months time they are expected to be organised enough to carry out paper one assessments of English and Irish 5th year students, which apparently was going to involve some sort of reshuffling around of content in both subjects. I mean - is that even still happening?

am_zarathustra

Good question, seems to have been very little talk about the 5th year exams, I assume no one had actually thought them through logistically. Just spin to keep everyone happy?

Completely agree re the new JC, was certainly not designed with kids in the bottom quartile in mind. The lack of separate papers and emphasis on literacy massively benefits kids from middle class backgrounds who have houses full of books and parents who can read them to them. The reading age of most of the common level papers is 16, that alone indicates an issue. Whereas a hard working kid, with a good attitude but a bad start could so very well in subjects based on actual subject knowledge now they will be asked to discuss an articles written in a lexicon they don't exactly hear much in the flats.

I had reason to read the Home EC papers recently and the absolute class blind questions about redesigning your front room, and buying local and organic had me embarrassed for the sheltered lives those writing the course had had.

joebloggs32

If it drags out much further the students will be old enough to legally go on the beer when they get their results!

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732272#Comment_119732272

What indication is there that non-standard candidates can't sit the new JC? Surely, those teachers who work in the institutions you mentioned can still teach the JC short courses to their students, can't they?

Some professionals - in education and mental health - who are in favour of 'reform' - as you put it - to State exams may see the cancellation of exams due to the virus as a vindication of their stance because the current system means the putting of too many eggs in the basket - a proverbial basket that the pandemic took away from exam candidates.

EAD

To the best of my knowledge, LC reform in the area of English is proposed for the current 3rd and 4th Yr students and so is a year and 8 months away. It's still a farce though!

spurious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732894#Comment_119732894

Short courses, yes, as sometimes they only have the children for a short period (or periods) of time.

Full courses, such as those that have CBAs and exams are more troublesome as they need candidates who are attending regularly. The very reason some of the children are in the non standard places and the Special primary schools (as distinct from so called 'special schools' for children with physical or intellectual issues) is because of poor attendance or not fitting into the way things are done in mainstream, or a likelihood of getting more involved in crime if not diverted elsewhere.

I'm not sure how employers who would previously have taken young people with their '5 passes' in the old JC (even if achieved in three sittings) look at short courses.

Always essential when an issue is raised to hear from people within the system as to what’s wrong: it appears that with the SEC still looking for examiners there is more to it than simply bureaucratic sequencing of appeals.

I’m interested in OPs wider question and the obvious derision among teachers for the capacity of the JC to prepare for a LC especially with proposals around 5th year SEC assessment. 3rd level is already worried about standards and the plan is surely to take the LC down the road of the JC. My question is are we going to see the re emergence of a 3rd level matriculation exam with a consequent effect on grind schools numbers?

am_zarathustra

Matriculation wouldn't be possible for colleges now, barring some dreadful multiple choice effort, they are badly understaffed as is. I don't know what the answer is, I vaguely hope when actual exams happen and people start to realize how dumbed down and vague the new courses are reform might be more considered.

Probably not though.

19000 appeals this year too, twice what it was 6/7 years ago. I suspect when the last few go online it'll be over 20000 every year, the JC will never be in September or even early October unless they hire a lot more people in the Cornamaddy

Random sample

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119736742#Comment_119736742

Appeals were free this year, which led to a lot of kids just firing all exams back in and hoping for the best. That doesn’t happen when they are paying.

I wonder is there a PMA to be added to the junior cycle results? That will add some time too, once they are marked. And would mask the issues with the junior cycle for another year.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119736742#Comment_119736742

Not sure if matriculation exams for university would be so far fetched. Trinity has 2 matric subjects which can replace any of your 6. Theology and Geology.

Just buy the book and grind away

am_zarathustra

The issue would be corrections, Theology (bible I think specifically) and Geology are departments where, politely speaking, there is less demand and much lower numbers of students. The biological sciences, maths or English departments would already be under pressure. You could look at post docs or PhD students I guess, but a fair amount would have English as a second language and you become less of a generalist as time progresses. It's hard to see a system with one of the worst student/staff ratios in the OECD taking on matriculation on top of everything else. Maybe some form of tick the box, autocorrect type exams, akin to SAT? I'm not sure thats any better though.

Free appeals are def an issue that and the ease of checking online has caused an avalance. The number of students asking for checks on definitions "that are in the book" would convince you no teacher is checking them as the might have when the papers were recalled to the school. Maybe making them pay will help them drop. The pattern is more extreme in the ones gone online.

The DOE never seem to really think through the things they promise. Let everyone appeal, don't worry about who will correct them. Free buses for everyone, don't worry about having enough drivers or buses. Points for everyone, don't worry about future grade inflation. They've never seen a short sighted solution they didn't love.

Geuze

How much of delays in grading JC is due to 48.5% marginal income tax rate?

am_zarathustra

This is very true too. JC is actually harder to correct in my subject with worse pay (at least half of the LC). Per hour the JC is absolutely not worth my while correcting whereas the LC HL is. Paying more would solve the problem.

I heard one of the DOE people on the radio, can't remember the name, but he was essentially saying encouraging staff to do it as cpd or to help in interviews..,..I've never been asked about that despite correcting for years and it's improved my teaching more than any training I've been on. If weight was given to it in interviews ect I think that would help.

byhookorbycrook

Would be very much against correcting as CPD. The teaching council want to make CPD compulsory for continuing registration. This CPD would be done at our own expense and in our own time . Teachers would end up correcting for free. Correcting doesn’t suit many people , why should they be forced to do it ?

am_zarathustra

Completely agree, correcting needs to be done by people who want to do it, the standard would drop massively otherwise!