UEFA Euro 2024: Mod Note Added 2/7/24

Acosta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122271868#Comment_122271868

Agreed, but the subs should have been allowed before that.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122271847#Comment_122271847

Ah okay should have read back

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122271537#Comment_122271537

for me, if you can’t see intent, then it’s grand, play on. If it’s not inherently an offence to have arms, then imo you shouldn’t be punished for having arms under some situations but not for others. The foul should, I think, be for intentionally initiating contact between ball and hand. That’s always been my own personal position on it.

FrankN1

Something missing from the tournament. Last 2 have been better. Hopefully it picks up.

steinbock123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122272040#Comment_122272040

The problem is, these are professional players and will use every trick in the book to gain an advantage. So if a player uses his hand intentionally to gain an advantage, and can make it look unintentional or accidental , or do it out of sight of the ref, he will. Players are constantly “buying “ themselves frees, late in tonight’s match Gurou was “fouled” , then got up and smiled at a team mate and gave the thumbs up sign. He clearly bought the foul.

Sure I read once that Jack Grealish is the most fouled player in the Premier League. He is in his arse. He’s the most “falling over” and “throwing himself on the ground “ player in the Premier League. You only have to breathe on him and he falls over. Harry Kane is something similar, he was at it again the other night playing for Ingerland.

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122272040#Comment_122272040

Pretty sure though that the official position on it is that any handball in the build up by the attacker sees the goal ruled out. Have seen a few of these incidents now since Christmas. Not sure if ref can even apply common sense to that as they've essentially said it is as black and white as an offside with that.

eagle eye

So the two players expected to fight it out for top scorer both blanked in their first games.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122272040#Comment_122272040

that would lead to situations where theoretically a player on the line would make themselves as big as possible with hands outstretched and if the shot hit the hand or arm it would be ok as long as VAR showed there was no actual movement of limb towards the ball.

so…I don’t know if people will be able to accept that happening but I wouldn’t rule it out that the rule reverts back to that because handball is a mess now and far too punitive.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122272379#Comment_122272379

If the ball bounces up to the hand and it's clear there was no intent then it shouldn't be a foul is my opinion on things. In this instance the arm was raised to fend off a player who has his arm raised and the ball bounced up to his hand. The suggestion that it assisted him controlling the ball was ridiculous because it clearly didn't.

Cake Man

That's an awful and very disappointing result for Ukraine, they no doubt would have been eyeing that game as a win. Would love to see them get out of the group and be a dark horse to give their long suffering people something to cheer about but their hopes now are severely dented. Bad enough to lose your first game but to be walloped (like the Scots) leaves a long road back.

Unlike the Scots however, I think they still have some hope. They simply have to beat Slovakia on Friday. I don't think they'll be as poor again and hopefully the Romania game is the kick up the arse needed to get them going. Likewise, Slovakia probably won't be as lucky again; how they came out with a clean sheet against Belgium only the footballing gods know.

Think this group could be one where going into the final match day 1st and 2nd spots could be anyone's and will change hands a few times (as well as potentially 3rd of course).

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122272395#Comment_122272395

I agree that simply touching the ball shouldn’t be a foul, unless the attacker benefits from it, which he did in this case. It’s still a very harsh one yesterday but there’s only so far you can go with mitigating circumstances.

Thought the whole process was pretty good yesterday in fairness. VAR spot a handball, ref goes to check to see if the hand ball was significant enough to give the attacker an advantage, reviews quickly and disallows the goal. All over in a couple of minutes with everyone knowing exactly what’s happening.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122272395#Comment_122272395

I don’t care about this incident in particular. It’s more about the handball rule in general and what people want to see in the rulebook.

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122272367#Comment_122272367

`Just so you know. I, and you, have as many goals as Mbappe in Euros tournaments. He's had 18 shots more than us, mind.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122272379#Comment_122272379

making yourself as big as possible with arms outstretched would obviously be trying to initiate contact. Think to be honest it’s one of those “you know it when you see it” things. If it looks suss, rule it out. If it looks like a case of normal inadvertent ball to hand, I’m ok with it.

pavb2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122272362#Comment_122272362

Thing is players don’t get penalised for it Grealish has never been sent off in the PL.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122272366#Comment_122272366

For one season it was absolutely any handball in the buildup at all. Then they realised that was too much, so they changed it to any handball by the goalscorer. Which I still don’t personally like… feels weird that an innocent ball to hand is fine in every other situation, but the exact same thing - depending on if you go on to finish - retrospectively becomes an offence. But it’s fine if you miss, and play goes on. It’s like a Schrödingers Foul in the moment - it both is and isn’t a foul, depending on later outcomes..

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273223#Comment_122273223

I suppose we could do this all day. I've always thought that if a player goes sliding with his two feet in the air and misses the player it should still be a foul. The intent is there and it's very dangerous.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273169#Comment_122273169

you can’t write that in a Rulebook and it’s far too subjective. You’re back in the slippery slope of natural and unnatural hand positions which is why the rule is so unfathomable now.

To repeat you have to be able to write a rule in a rulebook. That is the issue that most people ignore.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273259#Comment_122273259

The rule is already there, covering the treatment of handballs under all other circumstances on the pitch - they’re just adding in an extra rule by treating it differently in the event of a goal/inadvertent accidental save. Literally just delete that additional rule and I’d be happy (again this is just my own preference though, I understand I could well be in the minority in not being that bothered by all accidental handballs being treated equally).

kksaints

Was at the Austria-France match last night. Some atmosphere from the Austrian fans, they were fantastic. French fans were fairly good aswell but not as loud. Mbabbe's pace is incredible but his finishing wasn't. Kante was excellent, he hasn't missed a beat. Austria battled hard but probably lacked the real top quality need to really challenge someone like France.

Organisation wasn't the greatest really before the match outside the stadium before and after the match.Once you got to the ground everyone is funnelled towards the one entrance for security checks which got crowded very quickly and took a long time to get through. It also wasn't clearly signposted that everyone had to go through the one entrance for security checks. After the match everyone is funneled onto one platform, now the trains were regular at least and i got on one of the first ones to leave but there was still long delays for some people.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273301#Comment_122273301

write down the rule you want for handball and I’ll show you the problem with it. You’ve said if it’s ball to hand it’s fine but when I said that would allow players to expand their silhouette on the goal line you didn’t want that.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273257#Comment_122273257

Agreed, and that sometimes is actually given as a foul as ‘reckless endangerment’ if it’s egregious/obvious enough.

Though not quite the same as the Schrodinger’s handball - in that case it is an entirely separate later event (the scoring of a goal) that dictates whether the earlier event (ball to hand) was or wasn’t a foul. Whereas for a bad tackle it’s the direct outcome of the bad tackle itself that tends to dictate punishment - not dissimilar though, but with that handball being a whole further layer of abstraction away.

Always find it such a weird logical choice to specifically have written a rule around.

HalloweenJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122272593#Comment_122272593

He is also the all-time top scorer in World Cup final games.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273355#Comment_122273355

As I said, the rule is already there, and is already reffed the way I’d like everywhere else on the pitch, in all other circumstances. I’d just remove the added bits around the goal.

Here’s how the FA rule is written anyway;

It is an offence if a player: 

• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball
• touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised

What was the point of the soundwave thing? Only seen that in cricket.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273579#Comment_122273579

ok, the problem with that rule is making your body unnaturally bigger is often a natural consequence of getting your body in a shape to attack the ball.

What is strange is you had previously posted about the rule should be based around intent. But now you are citing a rule you agree with even though intent is absolutely no consideration to enforcing the rule. So I think you have contradicted yourself.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273653#Comment_122273653

To indicate the sensor in the ball picked up hand contact?

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273718#Comment_122273718

Ooh I wouldn't agree with ya at all on that - intent is an internalised principle. What I intend to do is something known only to me, until i start taking out actions to bring that intention to reality. So of course they, in a rule, cannot write something as nebulous as 'intent' and leave it at that - so instead they've written fairly clearly to try to preclude the tangible actions resulting from 'intent'.

"deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm" for instance (deliberate obviously being a synonym for intentional), which they follow up with "for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball" — seems a pretty clear implication of intent, and how that intent might be spotted in action.

Or; "when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation" - that's saying that if the movement is not reasonably justified by the real world situation the player finds themselves in, then the errant movement has, if you will, an intent beyond that situation. (that also nicely covers your initial point of a body position being 'bigger as a natural consequence of… etc'). Visually, these actions equate to "it doesn't add up…", so a ref has license to question what the player is actually intending to do.

Think it's actually a pretty well worded rule to cover the tangibles of intent through action. Given that it's been their actual written rule for a while now, I'm sure they had a bunch of people spend a bunch of time working out that specific wording.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273780#Comment_122273780

I don’t know. You said intent should be the basis of the rule so I was discussing it on that basis. Now you’ve changed tack so I don’t really know what we are talking about anymore.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273832#Comment_122273832

…I just posted how the basis of the currently written rule, to me, IS intent…

What I actually said was "for me, if you can’t see intent, then it’s grand, play on"… and that rule reads as the ways through which intent could be identified (deliberate movement of hand to ball, or changing your body position in a way that does not fit the situation unless your intent is to get a hand in the way of the ball). That's how it reads to me anyway.

I'm still saying the same thing I've always said…

jacool

Looked back at the FRA-AUT highlights, and the referee seemed very biased.

5 bookings for Austria, the worst of which was for Baumgartner, who plays the ball and then gets a kick in the head from Maignan for his trouble. What is he supposed to do? Just let the keeper pick it up?

Besides all that, France, despite the score line, are the best team I have seen so far.

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273524#Comment_122273524

This is where I'm supposed to call you out on going "off topic" :)

Miroslav Klose is actually the all time top scorer in World Cup final games. Mbappe isn't even the top French scorer.

HalloweenJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273884#Comment_122273884

I was referring to a more specific stat. In the actual final game (the one where the winner lifts the trophy), Mbappe has four goals in two appearances (1 in 2018 and the hat-trick in 2022). No other player has scored that many. Klose has none from two appearances (2002 and 2014).

My point was that stat is as impressive as the no goals in Euros is unimpressive.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273867#Comment_122273867

it doesn’t read like that to me. Intent is a factor in the rule but it’s not the basis of the rule. Making your body unnaturally bigger is not always about intention to handle it in practice, it’s about the arm being in an unnatural position. This unnatural position basis of the rule is causing problems because to get leverage for a particular situation you have to put your arms in different positions, not to play the ball but just to move efficiently to attack the ball. The rule would be fine if you could play as well with your arms by your sides as playing with free movement of arms. In reality you can’t play as effectively that way.

I don’t think this rule is mindful of the other thing you said about being punished for having arms. I think the rule as written does punish people for having arms.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273723#Comment_122273723

Yeah but what's the point of it in football terms?

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122274065#Comment_122274065

because if the ball hits the hand of an attacker in the lead up to a goal it’s automatically chalked off? Isn’t it?

breezy1985

Im so glad VAR came along and put an end to all those tedious arguments about decisions that we used to have.

pavb2

The thing with VAR is it doesn’t overturn all decisions which the ref might have got wrong.for example a goal kick was awarded yesterday which was in fact a corner, all it would have taken was a message to the ref, no delay or hold up in play.

I also don’t see why the ref should go to the monitor, at that stage in the heat of a game with 50000 + fans screaming at him why can’t the decision be made by the VAR officials who are removed from the emotion and fan influence.

Headshot

I wonder could there be a danger of todays games being in trouble due to the weather?

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122274032#Comment_122274032

I'm not really sure about the point of 'factor in' versus 'basis of'... the very first line of the rule is "It is an offence if a player deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm". That's like the thesis statement, with it then going into ways of defining 'deliberately touches the ball' in more practical terms. So for me, the way the rule is written does what I want it to do.

An unnatural position for me - as described in the rule - would be something like having your arms outstretched in a way that is not connected to any normal action you're in the middle of doing (running, jumping). If your arms are just stuck out without that justification (as the rule says), then it's a handball. I'm fine with that as a rule. I think in practice in the box they're stricter on their enforcement of that than the way the rule is written, penalising things that to me look reasonably natural, but that's an enforcement issue. And I think we can all agree that enforcement of handball stuff has been incredibly inconsistent for a few years now.

Anyway, I'm sure this is all sorts of tedious, and I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just conveying my own consistent position of what I would like to be the case - particularly in terms of removing the schrödinger's handball element where an infringement is entirely dependent on if the guy scores or not.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122274699#Comment_122274699

I think the whole natural unnatural position is far too subjective and is leading to punitive handballs that if you called them in your local Astro game you’d be called a wanker and to shut up.

You can’t really use your arms as leverage to jump if the arms are out from your sides when doing this you’ll be done for it.

I don’t think what you are saying really fixes anything. You’re happy with the rule, you just don’t think it should be applied differently for goals. That’s fine but it won’t solve much of the handball issues that are blighting the game.

The rule is kind of impossible. It actually can’t be fixed in a way to everyone’s satisfaction. But people (not you, everybody) should admit this instead of just saying they’ve made a mess out of the rule. The fact is it’s an ungovernable part of the game.

I challenge anyone to try and rewrite the handball rule and I’ll successfully pick holes in their writing. I don’t mean that arrogantly; If I tried to re write the rule I’d pick holes in my own rewriting

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122274730#Comment_122274730

As I said in that last post (which i've tweaked a bit to make it read more nicely), I think their enforcing of the rule is the problem, not the way the rule is written, which I think is written as clearly as is probably possible. They penalise things that for me are clearly covered under the rule as natural actions as written - like with Lukaku's goal yesterday for instance. On another day, another ref doesn't have a problem with that.

As you say it's one of many many parts of football are not black and white, and have subjective elements, so the only way to improve that is through better, consistent, and ongoing communication to the refs from governing bodies so incidents that stray outside the central acceptable norm are highlighted as errors. Instead there seems to be no through-line, and it's just left as this ref-by-ref hodge podge without central guidance.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122274802#Comment_122274802

the rule yesterday was it can’t hit an attackers hand in the lead up to a goal. As far as I’m aware. As you’ve said you have a problem with the rule being different depending on context so thought you understood that to be the case aswell?

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122274831#Comment_122274831

They scrapped that rule years ago, no?

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4222756/2021/03/05/accidental-handball-in-build-up-to-a-goal-no-longer-considered-an-offence/

UEFA have a much stricter interpretation of handball than the premier league. I thought ruling out Belgiums goal yesterday was a joke.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122274831#Comment_122274831

As bren points out (and i posted this morning - spurring that Schrödinger's handball post), that rule only lasted one season, before being switched to only applying if the goalscorer was the one who handled it.

My point in the aftermath of that incident was that there was no intent in the touch, and no unnatural movement, so should not have been chalked off as per the rules. That's where the whole 'intent' conversation stemmed from.

Did you smash it

oh right, it’s kind of typical that people were saying after one or two games that they were so much better at using VAR in European competitions than the PL, yet they dropped an absolute bollock yesterday in that case. They thought the hand was in an unnatural position or on what basis was it ruled out?

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122274943#Comment_122274943

yeah, exactly! By the rules, they have to have interpreted it as being unnatural/intentional, which it really didn’t look like. (That’s what got me all fired up on handball stuff 😅)

golfball37

the rule is did the attacking team gain an advantage by hand contact in lead up to a goal is what was quoted on bbc last night.
In this context the rule was applied correctly for the Lukaku goal.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122274978#Comment_122274978

It is an offence if a player: 

• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball
• touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised
• scores in the opponents' goal:
  • directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper
• immediately after the ball has touched their hand/arm, even if accidental
  
  That’s the official handball law - no mention of advantage in there!

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122273977#Comment_122273977

OK. If you had said World Cup Finals, then it would have been clear.

Unclear yet as to whether he'll be back for the game against the Dutch or not. Considering how he went down under the "contact" from Laimer, I'd be surprised if he's back before the last 16 game. My "excellent" predictions have them facing Turkey on July 2nd. He should be ready for that.