Reflection on the pandemic: questions about the authorities' response.

Flinty997

It's not like those looking for punishments would trust the replacements anyway.

DLink

I don't expect anyone to get fired, sadly, but if it puts the wind up someone and makes then think twice, then well and good.

They've had tribunals for less, why are you so against investigating the decisions behind two years of torture, coercion, browbeating & pointless restrictions?

Like I said, if it makes them think twice about doing what they did in the past, then spend my fücking tax money. I'd nearly pay more tax just to see that lockdown merchant King Tony squirming.

Padre_Pio

Hindsight is 20:20.

For every question asked of the government, people should consider the information that was available and the public mood.

Most of the public was hugely in favor of lockdowns if they kept numbers down, which they did. Relaxing lockdown = more positive COVID cases. Remember that lockdowns were a response to an overwhelmed health service, not to keep deaths down. Also remember that every country was finding their feet in a new crisis, with no solid information on the virus in the first 3 months.

It's not fair to say "well country X had this policy and it worked, so why didn't we?" when the information on the policy's success was unavailable at the time.

Mike Ryan said that incorrect action is better than inaction. At least you can learn from incorrect action.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791535#Comment_119791535

Well this is essentially the crux of it. A review has to take a hell of a lot of variables from the times of those decisions into account and when you have a minority who don't seem to agree with the path taken, the to the point that the outcome of a review (in their head is already known) you reall have to question the rationale of having a review in the first instance.

Some posters calling individuals nicknames and their attitudes towards individuals says it all really.

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791535#Comment_119791535

We could see, while still in the pandemic, that they were pulling restrictions out of their asses, the dead weren't piling up in the streets, knee jerk restrictions to protect the always in trouble health service, pandering to the Vulnerables and not to be seen as granny killers, there's no need for 20:20 hindsight as we could see what was going on in real time.

And what was the health service doing during the pandemic?

Picking their holes, dancing around in empty hospitals to cheer us up FFS, same as the other idiots dancing around on the empty beaches while on "covid patrols".

Mike Ryan said that incorrect action is better than inaction. At least you can learn from incorrect action

Your shining star from the WHO said that we can learn from "incorrect action", yet how do you expect us to learn from that "incorrect action" if you're saying "be grand lads, no need to have a tribunal"?

Smacks of double standards to me if you're quoting him then saying hindsight doesn't apply.... there needs to be accountability for what they did, and lessons need to be learned, no ifs, buts or maybes.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791736#Comment_119791736

You've already decided the outcome of any tribunal.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791736#Comment_119791736

"Pulling restrictions out of their asses"

There was no data to work from. We entered a 2 week lockdown. "Two weeks to flatten the curve" Sure it was guesswork, but the alternative was to do nothing.

Restrictions were designed to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed. Just because we didn't have corpse carts doesn't mean they weren't worthwhile.

I think you'll find the ICU figures were near maxxed out for most of the first few waves. Didn't we get daily reports on it?

That quote from Mike Ryan was from the START of the pandemic, based on his ebola experience. He didn't have hindsight when he said it.

I agree that accountability and lessons need to be learned, but it seems you've already got your pitchfork and torch at the ready.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791843#Comment_119791843

When has anyone been happy with a tribunal.

People who see conspiracy in everything, and distrust authority and experts and data, will be even happy with it. Since tribunal's are full of such things.

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791843#Comment_119791843

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791902#Comment_119791902

You are both are both correct, the pitchfork is out and sharpened, the laser sight has been fitted and zeroed... I have decided what I would do with all of them, from Lockdown Tony through to a local level.

However, I'm just a single username floating around on the internet, and what I hoped would happen to them still hasn't happened.

There's a big distinction between me and a tribunal though, and one would expect there are more rational minds that would run the tribunals or investigations.

I don't expect we'll see eye to eye on this, as far as I'm concerned a few people need to lose their pension at the very least, or even better, go to prison.

I'd give them a free pass for the first 3 or 4 months of the pandemic, it was all a big novelty after all, but after that they were just playing with our lives & freedoms.

Have a tribunal or investigation, and see what comes of it.

The cost of such a venture is only going to be a drop in the ocean compared to the money they wasted on the covid response, maybe they can make their money back by docking a few gilded pensions.

Here are some questions that should be asked...

• Why was the established pandemic plan thrown out the window on Day 1 and the Chinese lockdown model implemented?
• If the ICU's were full how did nurses have the time to put together dance videos?
• How many people died from missed cancer / health screening?
• Where did the HSE spend all that money?

These people do need to be reminded that there are consequences to their decisions, and they need to be reminded they can't just hide behind decision by committee.

I don't care about hindsight... think twice, act once.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792252#Comment_119792252

A single username on the internet simply doesn't have the political clout for a tribunal to happen. Lots of people need to make it an election or political issue and from what I can see there aren't that many people who care enough for that to happen.

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792300#Comment_119792300

I agree, but I'll be running it past any politician who cares to darken my door looking for a vote come election time, as that's the only time they'll listen to us plebs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792190#Comment_119792190

I do not see any conspiracy, what I saw was blind panic and rushed decisions, an hysterical press calling for lockdowns, politicians wanting to be seen as doing something, a self feeding circle of panic and incompetance amongst people who really should have known better, but were also wanting not to be seen as inactive. Those who held back (BoJo in the UK for example) was pilloried by the press until they enacted the same pointless measures as almost everywhere. We don't hear much about Sweden these days/

Silentcorner

Tony Houlihans personal behaviour should be investigated, time and again he demonstrated that the authority bestowed on him was getting the better of him.

Altho, in this country, he'd probably win the next presidential election...sadly it wouldn't surprise me!!

….

Stormyteacup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791535#Comment_119791535

Lockdowns were in response to a potential overwhelmed health service. While it was strained in early days, that was nothing new, health services have been maxxed out at times as long as I can remember.

When the first wave had clearly passed our authorities sat on their hands and decided to wait and see. After that, restrictions were indeed to ‘save lives’ by attempting to stop covid, and authorities dabbled with zero-covid influenced policies until it became clear that vaccination would not eliminate Covid. This despite vaccine trials showing no evidence for interruption of transmission beyond reducing the number of people being infectious at the same time.

Protecting our health service included initially moving elderly out of hospitals to free up beds, without testing them for Covid - to spread covid to respite facilities and nursing homes.

Up to date information was available from many different countries at the time decisions on restrictions here were taken so hindsight is not applicable. We decided to paddle our own ridiculously cautious canoe, to the detriment of so many other health and economic concerns. They may get a pass for the early phase of pandemic but thereafter it was a sh*tshow of fear propaganda and misinformation from the media, and knee-jerk political decisions, that had the public in thrall to lockdowns and restrictions.

And as you say Mike Ryan reckons we can learn from incorrect action, so why not look back and learn from mistakes and make policy to ensure those failures are prevented from happening again?

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792546#Comment_119792546

This is why Tony would walk into Aras, guys like this guy!!!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792759#Comment_119792759

….

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792457#Comment_119792457

If anyone spent more than 2 minutes thinking about the initial lockdown they would realize what an incredible abuse of our civil liberties it was. We had next to no data to warrant the type of response we seen and the length of it was extraordinary.

To hear people say the the wrong action is worse than no action clearly haven't the first clue. The wrong action has led to the ballooning of hospital waiting lists to over a million people. Global supply chains were disrupted leading to higher costs and who knows how many deaths in developing countries as the west shut down while pumping obscene amounts of money in to the economy.

There's been incredible waste of citizens money on everything from PPE that wouldn't fit midgets, ventilators that didn't exist, and who knows what else buried in the unaccounted spend.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119783065#Comment_119783065

As someone who lost a parent to covid in one of those nursing homes in the early stages of Covid, I would just like to say fcuk you, and I do not want any enquiry.

It was hard enough going through it at the time, knowing my beloved parent was dying in a nursing home and I / our family were not allowed to see her or be with her because WE DIDN'T KNOW at that time what covid was or how dangerous it was.

I believe the Government did what they thought was in the best interests in the public health. So I'd rather let it rest now, and try and continue healing from the loss, which was traumatic in its nature - including not being able to have a proper funeral. I'd rather not have it all raked up again. Third anniversaries are only a few months away. Do I think mistakes were made? Most likely. But it won't bring any of those we lost back.

And having to put up with clowns who are dismissive of these deaths by saying "they would have happened shortly, anyway" are just insulting, ignorant fools.

I will be making no further comments in this thead.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792457#Comment_119792457

Well you certainly don't hear the people who retired to Sweden complaining.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119793074#Comment_119793074

As someone who lost a parent during covid after a long battle with cancer I absolutely want a review carried out. Our last year together was greatly hindered by draconian measures that ignored patient wellbeing and dignity, especially around end of life treatment. The sheer hubris of senior civil servants telling people they couldn't spend time with dying relatives was outrageous.

We all have our own experiences of lockdown and the pandemic. I would like to ensure that families in any future pandemic are treated with respect and dignity in a similar circumstance.

Don't Chute!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792902#Comment_119792902

Still looking down your nose at everyone I see. Two utterly pointless posts in a row.

Flinty997

Seems to hit a nerve quite accurately though ...

Don't Chute!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119793226#Comment_119793226

No it just epitomizes the disgraceful attitudes we saw from people in this country throughout this. Smug self-righteous moralizing gobshites judging everyone around them.

Don't Chute!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119793097#Comment_119793097

What does this mean?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119793097#Comment_119793097

The death rate per 100,000 is lower than most first world countries, so go figure.

https://covid19.who.int/region/euro/country/se

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119793513#Comment_119793513

Lol. Just not the relevant ones.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119793251#Comment_119793251

I see what you mean.

lizzyjane

I see New York Supreme Court has over turned the decision to sack people for not getting the vaccine. Employees will be reinstated and be given back pay.

https://twitter.com/drsimonegold/status/1584963005204176896?t=WE753kH4jhxi0o2Bl5Ss9g&s=19

Flinty997

So I guess we've not discussing Ireland any more.

JRant

Just remember "we had to move at the speed of science to understand what is really taking place in the market".

As expected the floodgates of unlawful sackings will soon be overturned,I wonder how many lost their jobs here because of their vax status.

Don't Chute!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119793766#Comment_119793766

Ah, I see. You’re one of those posters who just comes up with ridiculous irrelevant one-line answers to people instead of actually engaging in discussion. If you have nothing to say, say nothing.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119793889#Comment_119793889

Im sure there is thousands of Irish citizens who have a good case of discrimination against the state?

Flinty997

It's a ridiculous thread. I agree with you.

Why would you want a tribunal when it's full of the things this thread is opposed to, and they never achieve anything, other than cost a fortune. No matter what the findings are you won't believe it anyway.

One the main issues in that article in the first post was nursing homes. It's been almost entirely ignored by this thread. Because the threads mostly not interested in it.

Has there been a single reported incidence of someone losing thier job here for not taking the vaccine? Becasue I dont recall any. Redeployed, yes, but getting sacked?

The thread expects thousands of cases though

As far as I'm aware the government were acting on advice from international health organizations and medical professionals at home.

When Covid started everybody was aware that it could have a detrimental effect on those with other health conditions, Covid was new and not very well understood.

We have a health system that can barely cope when things are good, having a surge on the healthcare system would clearly lead to unnecessary deaths so restrictions were necessary to limit the rate of infection.

You would imagine that if the world had enacted a coordinated quarantine that the infection could have been contained but there were those who thought it was a hoax or had to go on holidays or had to meet up with mates for a few pints. Now covid is something we all have to live with.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794322#Comment_119794322

There are news articles going back about unvaccinated staff working in hospitals and nursing homes. Thus far all I can see is they were repeatedly offered vaccines. No mention of punitive action. Though I assume its likely to have happened in some places. But I limited my search to Ireland.

Anecdotally I know not all the carers I had dealings with were vaccinated. Only getting the vaccine and boosters after getting sick from COVID and having to isolate and take sick leave. No idea if that's representative of anything. The news articles would suggest it was common enough.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794326#Comment_119794326

This is why a tribunal is pointless. They followed international practice and the countries DolanStats are better than most. They have get out of jail card.

That's not to say the govt can't be critised for all the stupid stuff they did. Mistakes were certainly made. Some investigation to generate future recommendations has merit.

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794326#Comment_119794326

You would imagine that if the world had enacted a coordinated quarantine that the infection could have been contained but there were those who thought it was a hoax or had to go on holidays or had to meet up with mates for a few pints. Now covid is something we all have to live with.

Oh well, people are gonna be people, whatcha gonna do about it now?

You are correct, covid is something we have to LIVE WITH now, it's here, the world hadn't collapsed, there is no need for any restrictions in the future, and there was certainly no need for the government to carry on the way they did over the last few years.

Parade them all in front of a tribunal and tell them to justify their actions and the decisions they made.

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794394#Comment_119794394

Is that you Tony?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794628#Comment_119794628

Stark. Yes.

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794651#Comment_119794651

Back from the dead so. Good for you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794616#Comment_119794616

True, but if we start calling out those we believe made mistakes during covid surely we should be also looking closely at those that contributed to the spread of covid due to their own negligence or non compliance with covid rules.

I wouldn't say there is no need for restrictions in the future, I do belive there is little political appetite for further restrictions but if we get a new variant or a large spike in numbers I'm sure we will see some reaction by government but not as severe as before.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794326#Comment_119794326

The very fact that we were working from WHO and medical advise is what worries me being honest. The WHO or doctors don't know the first thing about running a country and blindly taking on all their advice is daft. Should what they were saying be considered in the broader context of what's happening in a country? I would say, they should be one part of the overall discussion.

Our government can't just abdicate responsibility because a handful of medical people tell them one thing. Lok at how laughable the modeling was for the first 12/18 months of the pandemic.

Who's to say that the next set of restrictions won't come from a group of climate experts in the UN reckon the end is nigh unless we lockdown for an extended period of time? It sounds completely batshot crazy to even suggest it but if we blindly follow "the experts" then it's not as far fetched as you might think.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794824#Comment_119794824

Non compliance with the rules! get away with yourself, the rules were crazy, they were stupid!

lockdown, move no more than 2km from your house, while passing others who live 1.9km away who then move 3.9km in the opposite direction, spreading COVID 2km at a time, while ignoring the "essential workers" who could travel the entire country without restrictions.

Going to restaurant, mask while walking to table mask off to eat.

I could go on but you get the message.

The rules were stupid in the first place and impossible to enforce, they failed, they would have failed if complied with to the letter so they were stiupid and people need to be held to account for their planning.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794942#Comment_119794942

The best of that lot was the €9 substantial meal that was required in order to sit down and drink a few pints. They were making this stuff up on the fly and then claiming it was based on "the science".

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794824#Comment_119794824

Negligence & non-compliance with regulations?

The lads who posted above have answered that farcical statement much better than I ever could.

The rules were pointless, unnecessary, and a joke. covid just laughed at us and ploughed on regardless, yet our lives were forced to come to a grinding halt because some lad decided to play king.

Flinty997

These rules that we didn't follow didn't work. Kinda self fulling prophecy in fairness.

Hard to argue they would never work because they did were they were rigidly enforced.

You can argue with some validity they would never have been as successful in Ireland due to our inability to follow rules, or the govt to enforce anything. But the govt can counter argue they worked well enough based on the metrics of that period.

Anecdotally almost everyone I know who got COVID knew exactly where they caught it. Even if they were asymptomatic they could point to a person or an event where they were mostly likely to have got it. Quite predicable like that.

PommieBast

@[Deleted User]

The rules were stupid in the first place and impossible to enforce, they failed, they would have failed if complied with to the letter so they were stiupid and people need to be held to account for their planning.

The bigger problem was the government acting like their usual weasels, with 2020 being one long string of "review in X weeks" even though infections were down to single figures. This was p!ssing away critical public goodwill when things were relatively good. The "six weeks to save xmas" was just asking for trouble.