Reflection on the pandemic: questions about the authorities' response.

walus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308011#Comment_120308011

One way to explain this would be - cognitive dissonance – a perception of contradictory information and mental taxation and psychological stress that are associated with it. Contradictory statements/facts/information are not psychologically consistent and people will do all they can to change that. That typically means attack and argue the ideas that cause this cognitive dissonance in the first place, ideas that are not aligned with what they have believed to the point that the cognitive dissonance occurred.

As a consequence, people start to rationalise their own actions as well as actions of others and/or reject the contradictory ideas outright in an effort to reduce the magnitude of this cognitive dissonance. Time and time again we see posts here that do exactly that – most recent topic is NPHET actions.

This in general is a self-deception mechanism that is aimed at reducing the effects of this cognitive dissonance, which is often amplified by other associated cognitive biases i.e. confirmation bias, sunk cost fallacy etc.

This thing is so unbelievably powerful that people start to confabulate and even develop false certainty in pseudoscience.

Other explanation could be that they were simply hired to support a specific narrative and they are doing their job. 

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308092#Comment_120308092

What you're saying is a truck driver isolated in his truck has exactly the same chance of transmission as someone traveling in aircraft sitting on top of a few hundred people all breathing the same air. Or that someone driving over the border between a shop and their house has the same transmission chance as someone as someone flying in from a week clubbing in the sun somewhere.

I don't see it. What's more the stats don't reflect a lot of transmission between the north and south. Which is odd until you look at stats on cross border journeys.

The argument that even one gets through it makes all measures pointless doesn't hold water. As the stats show transmission can be slowed or contained with restrictions. As soon as measures were lifted the numbers exploded.

It's all moot now. But the stats are interesting.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308291#Comment_120308291

I never mentioned anything about the transmission in trucks or on airlines. Please read my posts again and stop making up strawmen.

No what I'm saying stopping flights does not stop the transmission of Covid into Ireland from abroad as long as you have another open border with another jurisdiction and your ports are open. I outlined a very simple chain of transmission that completely negates any measures with regard flights. Also understand its not just my view it was NEPHTs view and the view of many other experts at the time.

I never said all measures were pointless you are completely misrepresenting my point. I am arguing about a very specific measure and my opinion is and was backed up by NEPHT. The only reason any restriction on flights were brought it was due to political pressure. It had nothing to do with stopping Covid it was all about placating a population sick of restrictions. If NEPHT and a lot of other experts had had their way the restrictions on flights would never have happened.

You have quoted 2022 flight figures to back up your point which is basically lying. If you were actually knowledgeable about the number of flights during the pandemic you'd be aware they were a tiny fraction of the equivalent 2022 figures.

The reason we had to have 5km lockdowns at times during the pandemic was precisely because there was no was no way of stopping the virus entering the country for the reasons I outlined. Measures in Ireland were always about containment never elimination despite the rethoric at times. Eradication of Covid is impossible in the long run and for Ireland it was impossible in the short term unlike some other countries.

Remember not all restrictions are created equal some did nothing, some made the situation worse, some were highly effective and a lot of others were in-between. Again it's stuff like that a review has to look into.

dalyboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308204#Comment_120308204

Ref your last paragraph…. In approximately summer of 2020 Micheal Martin stated that the government were recruiting social media marketing and sales professionals with the sole purpose of combating what he called “DISINFORMATION” . At the time I remember thinking that he’d just officially announced that the gov of Ireland are paying people to spread propaganda.

I wonder will this so called covid response review include any financial audit of where our taxes went 2020-2022 to fund media compliance and (100% admission by the leader of the country) propaganda to support their pseudoscience actions.

walus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308565#Comment_120308565

I'm not sure about the social media part of the 'covid propaganda', but the government paid various TV and radio stations money to do exactly that. There was a poster here who published those figures in a spreadsheet that showed the exact amounts. I think that these figures would be fairly easy to find again.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308542#Comment_120308542

The NEPHT fear guy who people are referring to said the opposite in his comments.

Actually I gave 2020 and 2022. The volume of traffic is different but the ratio is roughly the same.

The data clearly shows that air traffic through the south is how the vast majority of people travel in and out of the country regardless of year.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308781#Comment_120308781

So what? The ratio is absolutely an utterly irrelevant. The majority of Covid transmission happened in the state between people who were living and working here. It was why restrictions focused on people living here. So once Covid entered the state and the transmission wasn't broken at scource nothing could be done. Once the numbers entering the state exceeded the ability to quickly contact trace and get them into isolation it really doesn't matter if its 1,000 or 10 million. It's not going to make any difference to the measures that had to be taken within the state. Again the boder also hampered contact tracing. It was very easy for the virus to bypass restrictions on international to and from Ireland.

You haven't provided any evidence that stopping international flights would have made any difference to the governments Covid strategy. Again only countries that implemented strict travel restrictions that actually worked where those that could completely close their borders. And even those restrictions were backed up by a whole range of extra measures that again Ireland could never implement.

If we had had an all island strategy things might have been different. However that was a political impossibility.

Flinty997

Blocking international travel is the exact same thing as 5K limit, people staying with in a bubble etc.

I've provided lots of data. its ye have provided zero. But thats the usual pattern in these threads.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120309069#Comment_120309069

The 5K limit was an absolute joke. Yes it stopped me going to Dublin and partying all night long in Coppers but closing the pubs had already done that

Flinty997

Ah Coppers the memories.

facehugger99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308204#Comment_120308204

Covid and our response to it should keep the anthropological community busy for some time.

Of more concern to me is the inability of our democratic structures to withstand the hysteria. I had always, rather naively as it turned out, assumed I lived in a democratic state with a free press, robust institutions and constitutionally enshrined freedoms. The ease with which social-media generated hysteria was able to effectively bypass all of these protections was beyond concerning.

When it comes to cognitive dissonance, I sometimes think about the Doctor who was forced to resign when he questioned the lockdown strategy https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/doctor-resigns-from-hospital-group-after-comments-on-draconian-covid-19-curbs-1.4356244

In the Ireland I thought I lived in, his views would have been considered and debated but instead he was immediatly shouted down and removed from his position. It was very telling.

If the architects and supporters of our response to Covid were confident in their position they would not fear questioning or debate but the haste with which the doctor was removed suggested to me they were, deep down, extremely worried the whole house of cards would fall if people actually engaged their brains for a minute.

Starmix66

More cracks starting to appear in the lockdown narrative, and yes, I know this is the UK, but with everyone here being fixated on the Swedish response to covid, I think it's fair game to mention a country that actually shares a border with us.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-64831240

Our exalted leaders were simply just laughing at us....do as I say, not as I do.

walus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120309964#Comment_120309964

I share your concerns. In fact I was quite worried with how fragile the democratic system has become over the last 20 years in particular. Democracy usually works in tandem with capitalism and it is capitalism where the rot originates. Nowadays it is only the upper class that mostly benefits from it, the working middle class has shrunk significantly since the 80s from over 60% to around 40% in Ireland today and has fewer and fewer opportunities to enjoy the spoils, lastly the lower class fall deeper and deeper into poverty. Capitalism today is deeply dysfunctional, and that in return shows significant defects of the democratic system, system that has always been reliant on a strong and populous middle class. Faulty capitalism makes democracy fall short of its promise.As it stands capitalism today works predominantly only for the upper classes, who benefit from its upsides without the dangers of the downsides. It is only the upper class that came out of this pandemic better off.

The pandemic only accentuated what has been going on for quite some time. The fragility of the democratic system has become evident. What was truly frightening though was how easily the Irish people were willing to forgo those key democratic principles and slide into an almost fascistic type of approach to social regimentation and suppression of opposing ideas.

This whole pandemic period presents an excellent field of study for researches of all kinds. The power of cognitive biases that went on at an unprecedented scale in itself will keep psychologists and behavioural economists busy for years to come.

Starmix66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120310187#Comment_120310187

Dear God man, are you crazy? That's crazy talk!

If you said that during the pandemic you'd have been branded an anti-vaxxer, anti-science, anti-knowledge conspiracy theorist, and you didn't even mention vaccines or science in your post 🤣

We literally gave up our freedoms overnight, it wasn't even a sneaky death by a thousand cuts, and yet we came back time and again asking for them to whip us even harder.

facehugger99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120310214#Comment_120310214

So this is how democracy dies.....with thunderous applause.

George Lucas called it.

PTH2009

Wonder will representatives from the Hospitality sector give some sort of 'statement' about the handling they received by Government/NPHET

72sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120307629#Comment_120307629

Oh yes the "Worry Index" rolled out almost instantaneously by that opportunist behavioural scientist Pete Lunn. Asking a sample of people during the outset of a pandemic "how worried are you"... what great ethics by Pete.

And you just know that the recently announced Covid review is going to claim the lockdown measures the govmt mandated were only what the worried Irish public demanded. LOL!!!

normanoffside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120310672#Comment_120310672

I always figured that question to be worded in a way to get the answer they wanted.

If someone had asked me how worried I was as the numbers were rising I would have said very worried, not because of fear of the Virus but because of the impending restrictions.

walus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120310214#Comment_120310214

I’ve been called that and some more in other threads. This is simply for having opinions that were contrarian to those of the general consensus. Having an opinion is one thing, buy acting as if it was true is something else entirely, especially when one may look wrong for a prolonged period of time. I have made several contrarian statements throughout the pandemic and acted accordingly, and over time these opinions and actions have been proven to be correct. There were others here who also went through the same level of critique and abuse, and credit to them as they also have been proven correct.

The fact that the majority thinks that something is true does not necessarily make it so.

hynesie08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120310375#Comment_120310375

They're sad it ended, almost like they don't care about you getting drunk....

https://www.yaycork.ie/cork-pub-owner-apologises/

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120309964#Comment_120309964

As it says in the article that you linked, Dr Colm Henry said that the threshold for herd immunity and the length of post-infection immunity were unknown.

y0ssar1an22

from my POV, was the response based on science?

if so, what has changed?

i feel most sorry for students. 18 months in college reduced to 18 months at home when you should be finding yourself.

disgraceful.

not many more deaths than the common cold takes every winter, but lets shut it all down.

bucketybuck

Just after seeing Cormicans full comments there and my god, its like a **** laundry list of things that people on here were labelled anti-vax scumbags for daring to point out. I suppose he will now get banned for being uncivil.

There are people on here who have spent two years defending the indefensible, I wonder do they feel one iota of shame at seeing this senior member of NPHET clearly state what we knew all along?

Ireland imposed measures during the Covid-19 pandemic that excessively limited basic freedoms.

vast majority" of public health members on the National Public Health Emergency Team believed school closure was not required for public health purposes during the Covid-19 pandemic.

the approach taken here depended too much on fear to influence behaviour and that many of the foundations of rational infection prevention and control were undermined.

Ireland focused too much on short-term data, like case numbers and mortality that excessively limited basic freedoms for too long and caused collateral damage to people's health and wellbeing, in particular people who were vulnerable and disadvantaged.

He believed the ban on visits to nursing homes and the decision to close schools long-term were wrong

some of the worst effects of Covid restrictions were on children who he said were deprived of education for a "very long period of time".

"Effects of that were most dramatic."

He said it was particularly hard for children with special needs who "lost years of progress" and for those in disadvantaged circumstances.

there should be a process that any restrictions are reviewed from a human rights perspective within three or four weeks by those who "are not intimidated by public health issues".

in the future he believes a process for recommendations should be reviewed by all members of the group before it goes to Government.

Having final draft recommendations being approved by everyone would be a "more robust process",

A few of those comments are clearly referring to lone wolf Holohan and his solo runs, but again that was all a conspiracy theory, wasn't it...

No wonder some people are so desperate for there not to be any independent enquiry, its already clear that truths like this would come out.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308204#Comment_120308204

Oh , the irony of this post !

Totally applicable to anti as well as pro .

And there is a difference being a contrarian for the sake of principle as opposed to just being contrarian for it's own sake.

Goldengirl

Just because Prof Cormican has said what people here want to hear does not make it a gotcha moment.

He is giving his opinion, which as one former member of NPHET he is entitled to .

However the way he is doing it imo is entirely unprofessional. . It is widely known there is no love lost between himself and Holohan. It is the result of his opinions in an academic paper which was then released a few months later publicly

He is however a very serious and esteemed scientist. If it was anyone else I would be very sceptical that they are somehow trying " to get out in front of " the inevitable enquiry .

And this enquiry will go ahead and it is welcome .

There are many bad things, nursing home deaths , not recommending masks in healthcare etc that need to be aired and examined and discussed with the context of the particular stage of the pandemic and comparing with scientific opinions at the time . Interestingly enough Prof Cormican himself has questions to answer in those situations iirc .He was instrumental in some of the recommendations for those early decisions , which now appear problematic . But not a member of NPHET at that stage however so can point to them to say " they did it "!

There are also a good many positive outcomes to Irelands response that need to be acknowledged eg lower death rates than a lot of countries , a brilliant vaccination rollout , and ensuring nobody went without money because of closures.

Again I stress it is his opinion It should have been taken as one, very esteemed , but nonetheless , one opinion and given the same examination as any other opinion from a member of NPHET . Of which he was for most of the pandemic , take note .

Why is he only disapproving now ? Why not resign from the well paid and highly important job earlier and put his hand up to say he did not agree and could not condone NPHETs decisions and was so upset he just couldn't go without saying ? Why indeed? There have been other people who have resigned from positions of influence and publicly said why .

Why not Prof Martin Cormican ? That will come out in the wash too I'd say .

Imagine the uproar if Tony Holohan came out with public paper that called out any mistakes made by NPHET and tried to dissociate himself with some of them because " he didn't agree with them " but just went with the majority .

This thread would be alight !

bucketybuck

So for two years when we questioned the "experts" we got shouted down and labelled conspiracy theorists.

And now it begins to emerge that even those same experts think they got it wrong.

Yet your response is more deflection and to start casting aspersions on the man who actually spoke honestly about his opinions?

I suppose it is far too much to expect that some people in these forums could ever just admit that they were wrong. Let the gaslighting continue I suppose.

Cluedo Monopoly

Does someone here know how NPHET governance worked? How were decisions made? Voting? Majority decision? Did Tony have the final say? Did NPHET take guidance from external parties e.g. WHO? And was it only advice?

Goldengirl

Absolutely not casting aspersions , but questioning his approach and timing which I think is key .

Am surprised others critical faculties are not being employed here likewise , or is it as I said only because he is saying what people want to hear .

The example of if it was TH talking , surely every nuance and more would be ripped to shreds .

And I think I am being fairly reserved by the way about Prof Cormican as his experience and reputation would deserve respect .

Yes some people were wrong and some were right , but everybody here are not right about everything. Nor were people here wrong about everything , except a few that nobody listened to anyhow .

There are some well intentioned posters here and also others who were gaslighting all through . I don't think you can say that that is one group over the other .

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120313249#Comment_120313249

All of the above . I would imagine I hasten to add .

I would say that some tough decisions might have been made by a core to protect the other professionals from the probable ire of the public , as they would have been more front facing than others .

At the end of the day the buck stops with TH and government make the final decisions . But it iwould be incorrect to say that each member did not have professional responsibility for their contribution , and also those contributing expertise while not members of NPHET , would have to ensure that they gave the very best data and information that they are aware of , in the interests of public health .

These are registered professionals and as such are all accountable .

hotmail.com

He basically said that mask usage was a waste of time.

Will this finally put an end to mainly older people and the far left wearing masks in public?