Govt to do 'everything' to prevent evictions - McEntee

Flinty997

The sole thing you're advocating is punishing landlords for the famine in 1840s.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725003#Comment_119725003

1) Capital reserves are irrelevant to tenants rights

2) Landlords already receive hefty premia to compensate for risks.

3) From where are you imagining a scenario that a landlord could lose their property "forever"? There is no need to be so melodramatic!!

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725018#Comment_119725018

Okey doke.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725003#Comment_119725003

The plan with out sourcing housing to the private sector was to off load costs to the private sector. When the sector didn't want it, they blocked the sector from refusing those tenants and payments. People here will twist that into propping up the sector. But the sector never wanted that business or those payment's. You can see that in how the institutional large LLS mostly avoid the lower end and social housing end of the market, because there's less profit in it. So when people say pull the social housing payments away from the LL's, its just a strawman as LL's would love that to happen and got back just to private tenants. Same with these eviction mortarium's and evitable non payment of rent. Those costs are often carried by the LL. The Govt doesn't want LL leaving as otherwise they'd have to back to covering these costs.

Thus far successive Govts has managed to deflect all the blame for these problems from themselves to LLs. They don't seem to stopping doing that any time soon and the people suck it up.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725030#Comment_119725030

You are advocating for no evictions even in case of non-payment of rent - in that scenario, a landlord could lose access to their property indefinitely if a tenant refuses to pay and refuses to vacate.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725194#Comment_119725194

No I'm not. I'm explaining why a landlord can't summarily evict a tenant on a whim. And also pointing out that these concepts are not new and a landlord expressing surprise to have just learned that such concepts exist cannot expect to receive any sympathy. You're extrapolating that for some reason.That's on you though.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725155#Comment_119725155

Ok Flinty. You can join me in my stance that all public money and supports should be removed from the private sector! 👍️

Let's take those few billion out of the private market and allow the market to return to a natural level based on what people can afford and are willing to pay

What is likely to happen here is that it will end up with money public money being funneled into the pockets of private landlords. The most recent proposal is likely merely a smokescreen to achieve same

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725245#Comment_119725245

Non payment of rent as per a tenants contractual obligations is not "a whim".

its the biggest breach of contract going and should not be encouraged or protected. If you refuse to pay your rent you should not be protected from eviction by the law.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725261#Comment_119725261

Nobody is advocating a total permanent ban on evictions. That is again being melodramatic. Nor is there any proposal that any obligation to pay any monies owed would be wiped.

What is being mooted appears to be a temporary measure. Temporary as in being long the lines of the moratorium on evictions that were in place for years after the crash here. Banks were also permitted not to write down book values of property so as not to trigger certain processes too. There were people living in houses for years which that banks had effectively paid for and those people were making no repayments. There are plenty of high profile examples which were subsequently aired in courts. Possession of real property can be difficult to retrieve once you have given it to someone else. That is not a new concept either.

It's part of the game. These things happen and you shouldn't be in any business if you can't cope with unexpected changes.

griffin100

The ‘temporary’ tax USC has been in place for over a decade. How temporary would any eviction ban be?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725312#Comment_119725312

Nobody said there would be an eviction ban. The statement was that they were going to do everything to prevent them. That is not the same thing. No need for hysterics.

All ye contract law experts and constitutional law experts can easily mount a successful challenge at the Supreme Court anyway.

FYI, USC was never stated to be temporary. That was the health and income levy. Which no longer exists. Although the USC did "take over" from it

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725272#Comment_119725272

It's part of the game. These things happen and you shouldn't be in any business if you can't cope with unexpected changes.

There will be no players in the game if these are the type of "unexpected changes" involved - regulation to kill the market. Currently we have an eviction ban being mooted with no definitive start or end dates (or even explicit confirmation that it would be temporary). There's no better way to destroy the rental supply than propose eviction bans for an undetermined period of time.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725334#Comment_119725334

Would you knock any rental properties that you have? Or would you prefer to leave them vacant and pay a vacancy levy on them?

It's such a strange thing. People who want to become landlords freak out because they will have tenants!!!!

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725272#Comment_119725272

Temporary me-hole. This is the government mooting the uncompensated seizure of private property to provide the accommodation required in a housing crisis because they don't want bad headlines re evictions in the run up to next election. Once in, it will be extended/renewed at least to the next election, and indefinitely if/when SF get in. Extending eviction bans means that private landlords will have to tie up their capital and personally fund the cost of living accommodation for their tenants, while paying their buy to let mortgages, service charges, maintenance etc. for what, 18 months now, 2 years, 3 years? Many of these are ordinary tax payers who have rented out their place while moving abroad for a while, couples each with their own small apartments that kept one to wait for it to get out of negative equity to sell after the last crisis etc.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725358#Comment_119725358

Grand. Should be an easy constitutional challenge for you to win at the SC so

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725334#Comment_119725334

The irony is what they are dong will just make it worse. They will say they had no choice because it was getting worse. Which then justify something else to make it work. Its a circle with no end.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725368#Comment_119725368

Do you have a rental property Flinty?

Are you definitely going to sell it soon because of these changes?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725349#Comment_119725349

I would sell them, likely to a FTB, who would then occupy the building at a lower occupancy rate than if it were a rental.

Housing stock stays the same, but number of people housed drops. Thats what happens when landlords leave the market.

It's such a strange thing. People who want to become landlords freak out because they will have tenants!!!!

People who are landlords "freak out" because the law is changed to make their job too risky

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725415#Comment_119725415

Any particular reason why that FTB should not be allowed to decide what to do with that house vis-a-vis how many occupants they'd like?........... Perhaps we should bring back the tenements and squeeze all these pesky FTBs into them?

It would be very generous of you though to self restrict your property sale to FTBs!

Regarding your last comment, don't believe the other poster who appears to think that there is some law preventing you from leaving the market if you cannot manage the risk. You can sell it and allow someone who can manage the risk to step in. Maybe Flinty would be able to cope and they could buy it from you and rent it out instead. I"m sure the market would be able to eventually recover from the fact that the direct debit would be then going to Flinty rather than you. And if he is able to manage it more efficiently, he is also better placed to cope with any possible future downturn or further changes.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725368#Comment_119725368

They have their own game and don't care if they make things worse, just so long as it isn't obviously attributable to them - they care about being elected.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725363#Comment_119725363

Whys that? Governments can do this type of thing, but it sends a message out to investors and not just landlords.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725446#Comment_119725446

FTB are overwhelmingly owner-occupiers and not landlords themselves. Owner-occupiers are also the biggest group of buyers in the market, so when selling a house you are most likely to be selling to an owner-occupier.

Owner-occupied dwellings have lower occupancy rates (persons per house) than rented dwellings, so as landlords sell up and owner-occupiers buy, the total number of people being housed actually drops.

As regards leaving the market, it is incredibly difficult to sell a property with tenants in situ. If you cannot get vacant possession of a property, no bank will lend against so the pool of viable buyers shrinks considerably. In this way, an overholding/non-paying tenant can not only cause a landlord to have a money sink (bills, LPT, mortgage still need paid) but also seriously inhibit them selling the house and getting out of the game, as so few people are willing to buy a house with tenants in situ. Even a big cash buyer would stay away as its a big red flag - why buy a house with tenants when there is a good chance they are not paying? If they were paying, why would the landlord sell in the first place?

And so you have the near-unsellable house.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725568#Comment_119725568

It's none of your business Timmy what a buyer of a house does with it as long as they stay within planning regulations and health and safety regulations. You have no more right to take that house from that FTB to squeeze in more tenants than that FTB has to seize your own house and rent you back a few rooms and squeeze a few others into the other rooms in order to increase occupancy rates. They are entitled to have their own space as much as you are!!!!

It is very simple. If you don't want to have to deal with tenants, or the consequences of having tenants, then don't become a landlord. You can sell if you want but you might get less than if you could supply vacant possession. If you have given possession to a bad tenant, then you can expect a commensurately lower price for your property when selling it. The same as how receivers end up achieving lower prices for land which is being sold against the "owners" wishes. But that was as a result of you handing over that possession.

StrawbsM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725568#Comment_119725568

The 1st question that would enter my head is “why, if renting is so lucrative, is the owner selling this property with in-situ tenants?”

dontmindme

I'm still not getting the pages and pages of debate on landlords leaving the market. There is no intention to bring in an eviction ban against non-paying tenants. The ban to be introduced is a temporary suspension on any notices of eviction (similar to what was there during Covid). So at the very most it's an inconvenience on existing landlords due to the expected hardship expected for this winter. WTF

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725684#Comment_119725684

Well, for one example, as I mentioned in an earlier post I know someone who has given notice to tenants because they need to sell their property.

Will this now mean that they can't sell their place. What if they are forced to wait until spring and there is a recession in the interim and property prices fall say 30%?

Government then has interfered in people's property rights and forced a 30% loss on their place. What if they are in financial difficulty at the moment and the reason they are selling is that they can't afford the mortgage on recently hiked rates?

Anyone who is going to say that is a risk of the 'game', no it isn't. They are changing the rules of the game because what - gas prices are up?

We all know it's for political reasons.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725684#Comment_119725684

BTW all termination notices are essentially the same whether they are for non-payment or any other reason so the ban would be on all of them.

dontmindme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725713#Comment_119725713

Yes, but has it not already been flagged that there wil be exceptions to the ban in the case of non-paying or disruptive tenants?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725713#Comment_119725713

There will people who will take advantage of it. That's happened last time. People just don't want to left carrying the cost of that.

DownByTheGarden

We have an apartment that is soon to become vacant. Lovely tenants. Though previous ones were a right pain. It needs a fair bit of updating at this point, but we would never be able to increase therenbt to match the investment cost. We were thinking of keeping renting it as it is after the current tenants move. But its stories like the OP that have tipped us into the decision to just sell it. There is a risk to letting out property now that is just not worth it.

I honestly dont see why anyone would want to open themselves up to it.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725733#Comment_119725733

The system already can't cope with those.

StrawbsM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725684#Comment_119725684

What if you served them notice due to non payment of rent? The tenant might be withholding rent since with no intentions of paying anything again. Who will pay the landlord for this “pause “ period?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725637#Comment_119725637

What are you on about? Nothing is "stopping" a FTB from renting out rooms in their house, however statistically the vast majority do not.

Statistically, occupancy rates per room are lower in an owner occupied house than it is in a rented house - its a zero sum game so when a landlord sells up due to far too strict regulations and an owner-occupier buys it, the total number of people being housed has dropped. You now have more would-be renters chasing far fewer rentals. It means more homelessness, higher rents - it is not good for renters.

Nobody will build new rentals or be a landlord if the risks are too great - if its impossible to get vacant possession for selling then many will not let out their property in the first place as the risk is simply too great.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725733#Comment_119725733

How does that change the situation for someone in financial difficulty who can no longer afford the mortgage being told they can't sell their property at a time when they think prices are about to drop, for example?

This could be a place rented out at 2,500 a month to two well paid young professionals who were given 6 months notice.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725843#Comment_119725843

God forbid someone buys a house you sell and decides to live in it as their personal home. The cheek of the uppity little bastards.

Given your concern on the matter, may I suggest that you would sell with the tenant in-situ.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725860#Comment_119725860

If an investor made a bad decision and can't afford their mortgage, then they have to deal with the consequences of that decision.

Ignorance of the law is not a justification for later wanting preferential treatment

If the government did implement a moratorium on evictions for a few months of the winter, it wouldn't make any difference to anyone who wants to start the process now. It's not as if you were going to have them out on 1st December only for it.

SwimClub

I'd say notices of termination are flying out around the country as we type, with people trying to get them in before the ban is announced.

You literally couldn't make this stuff up.

Donald Trump

The interesting component will be all the unregistered landlords who "forgot" to declare their income, getting an assessment in the door from Revenue when their tenants file for their tax credits this year.

You can add that as a contributory factor in any rush to try to evict by the end of the year!!!!

spaceHopper

Full disclosure, I’m an agent for a LL, my mother, the house was my Dad’s pet project before he died. I help my mother with it. One day I’ll inherit it. I’d like to keep it particularly as it would give my kids somewhere to live when they are older. But the way things are going I think I’ll be forced to sell it.

We all have a social responsibility to pay our taxes, we outsource all other social care to the government, it’s not your job to provide housing for those in need, that’s the governments job. Landlords are no different.

To me private renting should be a convenience for LL and Tenant, not a way of life. 

You’re a student, you rent with a few friends

You’re a young person starting out, you rent with a few friends or on your own. 

You move for work or travel…

You meet somebody and move in together…

Eventually you buy your own place. 

If needed for what ever reason you can’t you move to state owned social housing. 

Basically you should never rent for life or as family long term form a private LL.

Back in the 60,70 and 80 the government and councils built social housing. 

In the 90’s they sold it to tenants we had the property boom in the 2000’s and the crash in the 2010’s 

It’s been apparent for sometime that the root cause of the problem is a lack of social housing and solution to build more but we’ve had endless delays and now costs have gone crazy. 

Everything the government has done since the 60s has made it worse not better. But lest stick to today. We hand a temporary 3 year rent pressure zone in Dublin that has been extended more or less indefinitely and almost nationwide. Did it work no not at all. We have REIT’s who’s first let will be as the max the market will bear or not at all. That’s driven up rents massively. Then we have smaller landlords, I personally know two that are getting out and there are many more. With both of them it’s as direct result of government policy. Go onto daft and look at apartments for sale, so many of them are ex-rentals, you can tell because it’s rental furniture or they are stripped out . 

When place becomes empty they sell, so that never appears on the statistics. 

This eviction ban, personal I expect it would be unconstitutional but even the talk of it is going to make many LL’s sell up as soon as a house or apartment becomes empty. We need to increase the stock of rentals at lower end of the market to drive down prices not upper end.  

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725976#Comment_119725976

With interest rates the way they are likely for the next couple of years, house prices are going to drop because would-be buyers are much better off waiting until rates moderate.

If a landlord has tenants in there locked-in with relatively high rents and they're paying on time, they'd need their head checked to turf them out and put it on the market at the moment.

'Landlords fleeing the market' happens at the apogee of house prices when they cash-out on a high. The opposite effect is about to kick in and landlords with a brain should be happy with tenants that pay up in a timely fashion and keep the place in relatively good nick.

That's the effect you'll see.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726060#Comment_119726060

The stats don't agree with you.

I agree if you've a decent tenant in then no real need to do anything. Anyone with ongoing issues tenant related or other wise is likely to cash out and see what happens.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725954#Comment_119725954

Have I hit a nerve?

I'm pointing out why landlords selling up en mass is bad overall for homelessness and rent prices, as the overall number of people housed drops. Why are you so defensive about this?

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726060#Comment_119726060

You are overlooking the risk that if a tenant leaves and are replaced with a bad one they they are screwed. Also that only works if the LL has no mortgage, if they do then their costs are going up but they can't raise the rent by more than 2%. If been a LL was such a sweet gig then why are so many leaving. Property is a long game it's not that people are afraid of crash it's the regulations and risk of more harmful regulations.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726148#Comment_119726148

A lot of projection there Timmy

Your imagined helplessness is not real. You can buy a house, sell a house, rent a house to a tenant, rent a house from a landlord.

There is no point coming on here crying about imagined difficulties and looking for sympathy. The faux concern for "occupancy rates" is tosh

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726151#Comment_119726151

Simply put, landlords were 'fleeing the market' because house prices were going gangbusters, those who finally exited negative equity could cash-in, and they saw dollar signs. That's the real story.

Now landlords with decent tenants in-situ would be well advised to hold on to them instead of letting the property sit on the market vacant for God knows how long. I see one in my area recently vacated and for sale. It's going to be there for a while. Big mistake.

The 'poor auld landlords' was just the predictable whinge from lobby groups to get favourable tax treatment on passive income.

Landlording with your mortgage cleared is still a money printing scheme in Ireland. Don't be fooled for a second. It's the easiest money to be made in this country.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726126#Comment_119726126

Well that's precisely the point. Landlords with decent tenants will do nothing as to sell right now and leave the place vacant for God knows how long would be boneheaded. And the vast vast majority of renters are decent.

There's a lot less "fleeing the market" when house prices moderate or drop. Funny that. It's almost as if people are moved to sell when asset holders feel the top of the market has been reached.

Landlord chicken littling never ends. You'd be sick of listening to it.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726184#Comment_119726184

What imagined helplessness?

The point on occupancy rates is not faux concern but very real systemic problems - if we drive more landlords out of the market, most of those units will be bought by owner occupiers, and overall occupancy % drops. This means more homeless people, and higher rents (less supply, more demand). It is a demonstrable fact.

You have clearly got a massive chip on your shoulder regarding this given your aggressive posts but you cannot refute the facts - legislation to make renting a property a more risky investment will only hurt rental supply.

dontmindme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725860#Comment_119725860

It doesn't, it addresses the other point you were trying to make around non-paying tenants.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725976#Comment_119725976

It won't make any difference what or when termination notices are issued at this stage as there will be a stay of execution on any that are in effect during the temporary ban.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726238#Comment_119726238

This will not drive more landlords out of the market.

Landlords sell up when they feel their asset price will get it's greatest possible value.

High interest rates almost inevitably means falling house prices, and we're starting to see the the effects already.

A landlord would be a fool to sell right now.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726202#Comment_119726202

Lets take a 400k mortgage free apartment rented at 2.5k a month. 2k service charge, 2k maintenance costs, 3k letting agents fees.

You've 23k left, half of which will go on income tax so down to 11.5k which is just under 3% return on your 400k.

Hardly a license to print money.

Now lets look at the risk side, on the equity you have a market risk of easily losing 30% of the value on your investment with up to 50% as happened 15 years ago very possible. With government intervention, you now have the non-payment risk going up to what 18 months from 12 months, thats another 45k or over 12% risk on top of the 30-50% market risk.

You also have vacant periods between tenants, search fees etc.

3% return not looking so appealing any more is it?