Recognition of surrogate child's genetic mother urgent

boardlady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770422#Comment_119770422

I agree with you. I think childless posters are the bulk. I'm all for the concept of surrogacy and understand only too well the pain of not being able to have the family you imagined, however, I do agree that the majority of surrogates are probably only doing so out of economic necessity rather than purely altruistic reasoning.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770759#Comment_119770759

The hormonal soup as you call it, is responsible for the development. The embryo only exists in the first place due to the genes of the mother and father. The surrogate is put through a cocktail of drugs which effectively put her into menopause so that her reproductive system can then be started up again, as required, and manipulated to support pregnancy. I'm sure the scientific world gladly 'grow' babies in large tubes and dishes if it felt it could ethically get away with it. I'm all

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771138#Comment_119771138

"Childless posters"

That's a pretty outrageous way of making a point, and particularly in the context of surrogacy.

Take ten and think about what you just posted.

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119745503#Comment_119745503

Excellent post. Thank you.

mohawk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769931#Comment_119769931

Your use of the word incubator is really quite dismissive of the process of growing new life. The mother (who one who gives birth) provides all the nutrition the growing baby needs and the baby will take it from the mothers own stores if needed, the mother will also transfer antibodies to the fetus. When the baby is born they will recognise the mothers voice and her smell. Hence, why usually the baby bonds with the mother first as she is familiar and this gives the baby comfort and security especially in those first couple weeks adjusting to the outside world.. Words like incubator don’t do justice to the process.

Surrogacy is a a real minefield ethically and there is a lot to be considered.

bluefinger

You feel for the genetic mother but at the same time it would be a complete minefield to mess around with the legal definition of a mother in this way. What would happen in future if a donor egg was used for instance? Would the 'genetic mother' then have a claim on any child?

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119773364#Comment_119773364

That's a case in point. Was there not a recent conversation around a Gay couple using a sister as a surrogate ?

UID0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743463#Comment_119743463

The European Court of Human Rights have made several rulings on this. The rights of the parents are not infringed in any way by the current situation where the genetic father has parentage and the genetic mother has guardianship. It does not impose any limits on the day-to-day lives of the parents. The rights of the child, however, are infringed as the long-term legal relationship with both parents does not exist. This infringement can be effectively remedied by adoption. I understand that some parents would not find this satisfactory, as they want a birth cert with their names on it, but the ECtHR have looked at it as allowing the child to develop their own identity.

The Adoption Authority are failing to act in the best interests of children by not considering applications, although I can understand the reticence to be seen as condoning "baby-buying" given historic adoption issues in this country. (I've put "baby-buying" in quotation marks as it isn't buying the baby, but buying the service of gestating a baby).

Jequ0n

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/dublin-news/heartbroken-dublin-dad-cried-the-whole-way-home-after-being-forced-to-leave-surrogate-triplets-in-kenya-42082878.html

There seem to be plenty of idiots who get taken in by the service providers.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775928#Comment_119775928

The Adoption Authority are failing to act in the best interests of children by not considering applications, although I can understand the reticence to be seen as condoning "baby-buying" given historic adoption issues in this country. (I've put "baby-buying" in quotation marks as it isn't buying the baby, but buying the service of gestating a baby).

They’re not though, because without any kind of legal framework for surrogacy, either domestic or international, the Adoption Authority are perfectly within their right not to consider registration or applications for adoption by intending parents of children who are the product of surrogacy arrangements, either domestic or international. There was alright a case last year where the Adoption Authority were required to recognise the adoption of a child born through surrogacy in another jurisdiction, in spite of their objections on the basis of the payments involved -

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/campaigners-hail-gay-couples-wins-in-surrogacy-cases-0skgxcc6s

The decisions of the ECHR permit member states to provide for their own domestic arrangements regarding surrogacy, but regarding international surrogacy, it complicates matters somewhat that member states are obligated to provide for children born of international surrogacy arrangements, but Ireland has no legal framework for this in place at the moment, which leads to circumstances like those outlined for the family in the opening post, as well as other circumstances which people may well take for granted -

As a party to both the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) and the ECHR, Ireland is legally obliged to comply with at least this minimum obligation. It should be noted that the ECHR decisions have led to courts in prohibitionist States such as France and Germany adapting their jurisprudence to allow for a pathway to parentage for intending parents engaged in international surrogacy arrangements.11 Therefore, since blanket prohibition is not an option, the focus must shift from whether regulation should be pursued to what form of regulation is optimal from a children’s rights perspective. In this regard, it is worth noting that Ireland’s failure to regulate surrogacy to date has had negative consequences for Irish families who have engaged in both domestic and international surrogacy arrangements. Children and parents have been left in vulnerable legal positions for lengthy periods of time due to the failure of the Oireachtas to legislate to address their status. As noted by O’Donnell J in the Irish Supreme Court in 2014:

“The absence of legislation does not mean an absence of assisted reproduction; rather it means an absence of regulation ... it is surely most clearly and profoundly wrong from the point of children born through an unregulated process into a world where their status may be determined by happenstance, and where simple events such as registration for schools, attendance at a doctor, consent to medical treatment, acquisition of a passport and even joining sports teams may involve complications, embarrassment and the necessity for prior consultation with lawyers resulting in necessarily inconclusive advice. This Court in clear and forceful terms drew attention to the absence of regulation in its decision in Roche v Roche [in 2010] ... The need for legislation is even more urgent today.”

https://assets.gov.ie/130886/e66b52d7-9d3e-4bb4-b35d-cf67f9eea9fa.pdf

It’s not the responsibility of the Adoption Authority to clean up the State’s mess (God knows they have their hands full already with cleaning up the previous mess made by the State), and it appears that the State is taking a different approach anyway; instead of recognising intending parents through the adoption process, they’ll be recognised by a completely separate authority set up specifically for the purposes of registering and regulating surrogacy in Ireland -

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2022/29/eng/initiated/b2922d.pdf

Only problem with the bill is that it still doesn’t include any provisions for recognition, regulation or registration of children who are the product of international surrogacy arrangements -

https://www.finegael.ie/international-surrogacy-must-form-part-of-health-ministers-bill-seery-kearney/

Dunno what they’re at, if I’m being honest 🙄

boardlady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771340#Comment_119771340

My comment was in the context of other posters who had made perhaps unfeeling comments. It was not meant as an attack - I honestly meant that a lot of the comments were coming from those who were not in the position of understanding perhaps the heartache of wanting, and having, your own child. I meant no offence by it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794495#Comment_119794495

There is a sort of clinical-ness alright to some of the posts that don't take in to account the longing so many people have for a child and the painful journeys they embark on.

For me my feelings towards surrogacy are mixed. I know that if I was desperate to have my own child and other options had been explored to no avail, then it's likely I would consider surrogacy.

First of all I would ensure I wanted to be a mother for the right reasons. It baffles me how so many people take a 'sure we might as well' attitude towards this most enormous of roles.

I don't believe anyone has an automatic entitlement to a child. They are human beings with all that entails and as their parent you are wholly responsible for their existence.

Some questions I would ask myself were I to have a child would be: what life can I give them, do I have the capacity to place them number one in everything, am I selfless enough, will I be a good enough parent, will I love them enough.

I would never question if they could fill my inner empty spaces, how can a child enhance my life, what will it be like to be loved unconditionally and so very needed, will I have a new type of identity and be a (Gods forbid) an 'earth mother type?

Some parents do so much parading around now of their children. No moment is scared due to social media. I find it all very sad. So called influencers recording every milestone including the birth, traumatic births used to monetise accounts and documenting the awful experience of a miscarriage including crying in to a camera.

I just had a quick look at Brian Dowling's Instagram because he is one of those whose baby daughter has no privacy. There's a photo he has up of him and the little one at a family members grave. It's not particularly related to the child but Lord above, who decides "oh get the camera out I want to post a graveside pic of us".

Gobshites.

Regarding the question of what makes a biological mother I'm firmly in the camp now of it not being the gestational carrier.

lmao10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775977#Comment_119775977

Great to see they got the money on the gofundme. The kids will be in Ireland before long.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794495#Comment_119794495

If you’ll forgive me, and I don’t mean to be rude to you, but it’s difficult to understand how you meant no offence by passing judgement on other posters who don’t share your opinion regarding surrogacy. It has nothing to do with whether or not anyone has children, and as @Yurt2 pointed out - your estimation that the bulk of people who are passing judgment on people are childless posters who don’t understand the desire to have children, is a bit… odd 😒

I’m opposed to surrogacy on the grounds that it encourages the commodification of humanity. Anyone’s desires, however strong they may be, do not overcome that obligation not to put a price on humanity. The law shouldn’t sanction any activity which violates that ethical constraint on human behaviour. We can’t determine laws in other jurisdictions, but we can determine laws in our own, and that’s why recognition of children born via surrogacy as deserving of equal protection in Irish law is necessary, without necessarily permitting surrogacy itself.

For context, if it helps your understanding - I have one child, I wanted many more, but for reasons I don’t feel it’s necessary to divulge, it didn’t happen. I could easily afford to have availed of surrogacy, one of the lads in work recently celebrated the birth of their seventh child, and that does remind me of my own desires to have had a large family, but that desire can never overcome my objections to commodifying humanity to fulfil my own desires just because I can afford to do it, and I know there are people willing to facilitate my desires, both as an altruistic endeavour, and in return for monetary compensation.

Just because someone is willing to do something, doesn’t mean the law should exist to facilitate their desire to do it either. It’s not just about creating exceptions in Irish law for people who have the means to be able to avail of surrogacy, it’s about ensuring that Irish law doesn’t encourage the commodification of humanity and pass it off as recognition of individuals autonomy, as the UN appears to have done -

https://www.genethique.org/250-womens-human-rights-organisations-call-for-surrogacy-ban-by-un/?lang=en

VillageIdiot71

Case is still ongoing. The report suggests the complexities are well appreciated - which makes the request for "equal" treatment incongruous, where the whole point is there's no way of achieving equity. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/1011/1328575-surrogacy-high-court/

The Adoption Board position seems to simply be that they don't want to make adoption orders if legislation will arrive shortly afterwards, making their orders seem unnecessary. Which suggests if it was clear the legislation wasn't going to change the position applying in this case, they;d just have to deal with it.

Which still might not give people what they want - but, then, doesn't the Court have an obligation to act in the best interests of the child?

Dyr

Cried the whole way home after he went over to collect his children. Heartbroken that a company which sells babies doesnt operate from a sense of altruism if you can't pony up the cash to pay for em

I though we all decided that humans buying other humans like they were goods was not tolerated.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769931#Comment_119769931

When you take epigenetics into account it can't be said that the surrogate mother provides nothing to the biological/genetic makeup of the baby whatsoever.

Demonique

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119773375#Comment_119773375

Brian Dowling and his husband iirc