Ireland Examining Neutrality After Ukraine War

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750756#Comment_119750756

Defend ourselves from what?

Eclectic Econometrics

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750798#Comment_119750798

LOL. I have seen the Ireland needs an army argument on Boards at least ten times and the closest answer I have seen to your question is "Russian ships off the coast" or some such nonsense. Russian planes and ships test US defenses, so having 2 trillion a year spent on defense doesn't solve that issue.

An invasion takes months to organise. Russia isn't going to just rock up one day with 2000 men named Ivan appearing on the beaches of Howth. If there is one thing you should take from Ukraine it is that the age of blitzkrieg is over, the US can see how frequently your boys visit the khazi, there will be no surprise attack.

But for the sake of argument, let's say the 2000 do appear. I keep seeing "we would need to call the UK", no you wouldn't. If you don't think UK and US troops would be heading here the nanosecond a foreign invasion force foot hit the beach I suggest you look at a map and give your head a wobble. And for anyone still living under delusions of the geographical significance of Ireland in an increasingly multipolar world, if the Irish government welcomed those 2000 men with open arms you would soon find out that Ireland is a bigger, colder version of Grenada.

Increase spending in cyber makes sense, everything else is pissing in the wind.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750782#Comment_119750782

It'll be the same plastic army generals calling for us to join. A few games of Call of Duty and they think there Douglas MacArthur.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750798#Comment_119750798

Abuse of our territorial land, skies, seas and one million square kilometres of EEZ from criminal abuse and sabotage, pollution and ransom of malign foreign powers.

Defence assets are more about surveillance, control, interception and interdiction in peacetime than actually shooting at anyone. The whole point is to avoid conflict.

But don't anyone be naive, the Russian Navy last Spring were using submarines to survey the routes of the transatlantic cables through our waters in the Celtic Sea and after that a Chinese Navy signals intelligence ship was sighted off Donegal.

We don't exist in a bubble, untouched by whats going in the World and make no mistake, we are weak spot in European defence and we DO have a responsibility to our EU partners and all the data and comms companies that are based in the State, as well as to our own people to protect what this Country owns.

Anyone who denies this is just being obtuse.

hawley

Ireland joining a European Union army is a fait accompli. They are using the Russia-Ukraine conflict to push it along at a quicker pace. Any country in the EU will forced to contribute to the army and toe the line with regard to US/EU foreign policy. The fact that our government has sold Irish citizenship to over 1300 Chinese businesspeople in the last ten years is a major issue imo. Are we going to be too scared to call out Chinese aggression? They're trying to coerce the West into compliance.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750359#Comment_119750359

But yet NATO on two separate occasions invited Ireland to join despite all of the above,

We don't have the 2% but it would Help, we do need to invest in radar,sonar naval platforms , aviation, but it's doable with an decent increase in the defense budget and it stays 1.5- 2 billion pa ,not just one off increases every now and again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751313#Comment_119751313

to be honest when people are sleeping in their cars to go to college I think we should worry about that more than military equipment we don’t need.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750979#Comment_119750979

Again who says Russia is going to invade us other than trolls ???

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751321#Comment_119751321

We don't need ,

If anything happens to the cables off our coast, people won't need to worry about college for a few years,

So build more regional colleges closer to the cities of cork, Galway,and so on who can offer the same degree courses as the main colleges /university,less people commuting,less stress on housing and other infrastructure.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751326#Comment_119751326

The only thing this country is being invaded by lately is excess shite talk 😂

I struggle to even think of one reason they’d want to

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751356#Comment_119751356

i meant because as mentioned above if we were genuinely concerned (as in the government) we just have a chat to the UK or US and it’ll get looked after.

I don’t entirely disagree with you, but I suppose I just think we have far more pressing concerns right now, that’s all

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751216#Comment_119751216

What conflict have we been in by remaining Neutral?

Dyr

"Whos going to attack us"

You mean mean who has attacked us? Remember our Health service being totally compromised? Wasnt a bunch of scriptkiddies who pulled that off, was it?

Ireland is a major communications hub for Europe and a gateway to the US for sea cables. Yet you have people who've seen gas pipe linees being cut and wondering aloud what we could possibly have to worry about. We're now a target that presents high rewards and low risk. Not being in NATO now is volunteering to be fucked with by Russia.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267627/ireland-examining-neutrality-after-ukraine-war

Non of the EU countries including Ireland are neutral and we did vote on it. The EU treaties we agreed to commits us to the defence of our fellow member states. Accordingly we are members of the Nordic Battle Group. And the chances of that being reversed is pretty well zero. You can no longer expect the benefits of western democracy without being willing to pay for it. Start the discussion by dealing with reality.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751356#Comment_119751356

If you check a global map of internet cables against a map of where the russians were sniffing around you can see they were over a connection which runs direct from u.s. to uk and northern france with small branches that land at cork, dublin, rosslare(?).

We also have connections in the irish sea to uk, (cornwall and n.england) which in turn is networked to mainland europe and n.america.

Our own main transatlantic cable connection runs from us/canada border to galway/w coast. And is way north from where russia was sniffing around.

But, as above we also share transatlantic cable with us,uk,france.

So for us to lose internet it would seem we'd have to be in a situation which involves both cable groups (shared and unshared) being attacked.

If Russia wanted to cut all our internet access they would first have to mess with us,uk,french cables.

So once again no advantage to joining nato.

Jequ0n

“i don’t think if it was put to a referendum that the Irish people would agree…”

Sadly, I think a lot of people would vote for it. Never underestimate the stupid of the masses, particularly if they are fuelled by social justice insanity.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751516#Comment_119751516

With our data center cluster, we are disproportionately heavily networked into big-tech data and a critical node for all of Europe and indeed the US in-turn. Data from all around Europe is warehoused in Ireland.

Data cables in our waters are a prize target and I'm surprised you don't know that.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751618#Comment_119751618

I'm sure if a tree was in danger they might change their tune

prunudo

Russians incompetence isn't a reason not to massively increase our spending on defense and have serious discussions on where or allegiances lie and how we defend ourselves from attack whether that is internal or external threats.

It is niave to think we shouldn't do anything and contuine with the head in the sand belief that our 'neutrality' somewhat protects us from the bad guys wherever they will come from in the future.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751618#Comment_119751618

The contention was that we could be cut off from internet. UK sea territory is unbroken from Scotland to NI's coast and internet cables run through this same area.

A Russian vessel would first have to enter UK waters without permission in order to cut Ireland off from the internet. So effectively we will 'always' be connected, and the big-tech data will always have a route. So probably pointless to attack cables in Irish waters.

As for where Russian vessels previously actually were located, the area in question is international waters. (although Irish eez for any resources).

tl;dr still no compelling reason to join nato, an alliance previously led by 'fool me once' Dubya, 'no sexual relations' Clinton, 'Pussygrabber' Trump, and today by 'are you my wife, i want to go home' Biden.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751995#Comment_119751995

Ever heard of something called the Atlantic? A Russian naval vessel of course can enter the Irish EEZ and territorial waters without approaching British waters.

And at that, naval vessels have freedom of navigation in EEZs. That's a law of the sea.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752055#Comment_119752055

still wouldn't be able to cut us off from the internet. as above, between Scotland and NI, its contiguous UK sea territory. Can't break that cable connection between Ireland and UK/wider world without first stepping up to nato.

So go into the Atlantic and cut a cable, it doesn't achieve very much. The data just takes a different path now.

Knowing this, why would you bother.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752087#Comment_119752087

You don't understand what an EEZ is and the difference between that and territorial waters.

A Russian naval vessel, be it a submarine or otherwise, is free to exit the Baltic, traverse the British EEZ unmolested and legally, and enter the Irish EEZ and on to our territorial waters.

Russian (and other) naval vessels are regularly in EEZs. In fact to exit the Baltic they have to navigate several NATO countries EEZs. And they are perfectly entitled to do so under the laws of the sea.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752136#Comment_119752136

ok so wheres the imperative to join nato in any of this.

will a russian vessel enter between ni and scotland, and cut internet cables? is that risk the justification for joining nato?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752087#Comment_119752087

Meanwhile the 50 + Russian submarines have the ability to do a lot of damage before anyone knows what's happening

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752177#Comment_119752177

It's but one threat vector we are completely exposed to. Do you believe NATO navies will swoop-in to a non-NATO member's territorial waters to save the day in that circumstance? Because without NATO membership, that's the security gamble Ireland is taking.

Now, in such a circumstance, a large part of the functioning internet in Europe and the US could be taken down in one fell-swoop, and our sovereignity violated at very little cost to the Russians. Our reputation as a safe-harbour for FDI gone in a snap, and our economic integrity in tatters. That's the deal we've cut ourselves, and NATO may or may not be willing to stick their neck out for a non-member should that play-out. It's a security gamble.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752180#Comment_119752180

I think UK probably would know. In regards to that small stretch between NI and Scotland.

Coulport and Faslane being a stones throw away.

Tonesjones

People should actually look at a map of where the transatlantic Internet cables are actually located before they use it as a justification to join Nato

https://www.businessinsider.com/map-shows-extent-of-undersea-internet-cables-that-russians-could-cut-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752220#Comment_119752220

The GIUK North Atlanic Gap and its vast EEZs would like to say hello to you. And once again, I'd advise you to read up on EEZs, the laws of the sea and the rights of navigation all navies enjoy within them.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752215#Comment_119752215

Its nonsense.

If you want to cut off Ireland ... completely ... you have to take an aggressive action while in UK/Nato waters. Damage UK infrastructure.

Theres no two ways about it.

And there's not much point in partially taking down Irelands internet.