Winter 21/22 Eviction Ban (was: And just like that, FFFG lose 298000 votes))

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319204#Comment_120319204

A reason for sure, but I think there will be others feeding into decisions.

I get the impression that a lot of landlords simply dont trust the govt to stop changing the rules at such an active pace and as such, its safer to just get out the game.

Will be interesting to see what happens next week with the ban decision, thats for sure.

Topgear on Dave

Ban to be lifted March 31st according to the journal.ie.

Standby. As with all rules regarding renting this is liable to change at short notice :-)

ingo1984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120323147#Comment_120323147

Next storm now will be tenants refusing to vacate the property and digging their heels in.

Bass Reeves

The AG's advice must have been quite stark, that there was no way the Courts would uphold the ban. The government must also have been afraid of a long term liability that could have cost the state money. After the debacle of nursing home charges the government must be aware that it cannot constance deliberately passing legislation that is illegal.

There is a second factor they would have to allow owners who require the house for themselves or for there family the ability to get the house back.

As many LL have only 1-2 properties it would also have allowed some LL's to get the return of there properties that way and allow the sale of the property within 18-24 months if required.

Finally there was the reality as many of us pointed out that as tenancies naturally ended LL were not putting units back into the rental market.

Contrary to Threshold and other charities ending the ban was the least worst option.

Government must not look at encouraging those with vacant properties to start putting them into the rental market

BlueSkyDreams

Wondered also if there was some legal point made by the AG that closed the door on extending the ban.

I am not convinced ending the ban was really what the govt wanted to do.

How many homes will the govt purchase from the exiting landlords...

That will keep people in the houses for sure, but what would be the impact on rents?

if someone is on HAP or other housing allowance and the govt now buys the property, is the govt going to pay itself full market rent for a property it now owns, or will it reduce the rent and lower/redivert the social welfare spending.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120323414#Comment_120323414

I suspect that the ban was legally questionable. There have been stories of people who have returned to Ireland only to be rendered homeless as they were unable to get people out of their houses/apartments. At the end of the day, the landlord owns the property, and if he or she wants to sell up or remove the tenant, then that is his or her business.

All that will come of this is the state's buying more houses, more HAP into the market and more inflation.

jedenwins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120323147#Comment_120323147

Do you have a link for this article? Last I heard was that mood had shifted and extending ban now looking the more likely option.

jedenwins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120323684#Comment_120323684

Sorry I see that article there now, not 100% yet and could be some T&Cs but we'll hear soon enough.

https://www.thejournal.ie/coalition-leaders-eviction-ban-neasa-hourigan-6011376-Mar2023/

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120323761#Comment_120323761

It's a cross all mainstream media at present. I imagine AG advice must have benn it was not possible to defend in a court case.

As well there is too many houses where tenancies end not returning to the rental market

subpar

A ban on evictions was never going to work and was little more than a political response to opposition demands and an attempt to place landlords into the blame game for the housing / rental crisis. When in fact the cause of the current crisis can be traced back to political decisions made over20 years ago compounded by social changes in peoples lifestyle expectations and the downgrading of workers pay and job security brought about due to globalisation and the relentless pursuit of profit by the multinationals.

Up to the 1980's and 90's local authorities not only built social housing but carried out maintenance on these properties, for example Dublin Corporation / City Council had a significant craft workforce at that time , with large numbers of Plumbers , Bricklayers , Electricians , Painters etc employed. The UK began the move to out source the construction and maintenance of local authority housing and Ireland gradually followed suit. In essence the contracting out of social housing to the private sector was down to a policy change designed to manage costs and transfer the problems of dealing with maintenance and difficult tenants to the private sector. In addition much of the existing social housing stock was sold off to the sitting tenants , instead of being retained for future generations.

All this combined to leave the supply of social housing the hands of the private sector, who lets be fair were only going to get involved if they could make a profit. Hence the supply of new social housing was now outside the control of the state and would only be supplied at market prices at in line with the overall health of the wider economy.

Combined with all this the younger generations , despite being well educated and qualified were not achieving the pay levels and job security of their parents generation. New entrants into jobs particularly suffered , due mainly to globalisation , but not in every case, a good example being Teachers who effectively sold out the incoming generation of teachers in order to maintain the pay rates and pensions of those already employed.

For those that can afford to purchase a first home many seem unprepared to take on the sacrifices , life style changes and deferred gratification required to accumulate a deposit and instead end up renting and looking to the state and in many cases small landlords ( people like their parents) for help.

So whats needs to change.

1. The state through the local authorities need to take back the building and maintenance of social housing.
2. All new social housing needs to be kept in the ownership of the state and not sold off to sitting tenants sometime in the future.
3. Pay and long term job security needs to improve for this generation , too much profit is being taken out of large multinationals and senior management and executives are being paid way to much. No one individual should be paid more that 500k / year.
4. This generation need to look to themselves more to solve their own situation .i.e. be prepared to save, buying your first home was never easy.

Nickindublin

There would almost certainly have been a court case and the AG probably advised that it would probably succeed. IMO the only way to encourage small LL into the market is to offer a tax incentive like the rent a room. It just doesnt pay when you add all the costs in. Tax ation of upto 52% and you would probably need a professional to manage at 10% as with all the legislation i think its too complicated now for the average landlord. Then if you get a bad tenant you end up with a large bill either to clean up the mess they leave or legal to get them out.

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324105#Comment_120324105

I do agree with this taxation is the answer, cut tax and you’ll see an influx of investors, side note to this I know a few people working in the bank and they’ve said in the past month or so they’ve had a huge influx of people enquiring about buy to lets, more than they’ve had in a good while, dunno what that means, is it because rents are high and they won’t be bound by the RPZ rules, or is it in anticipation of big tax breaks?

I dunno I thought it was odd, so did they

Nickindublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324187#Comment_120324187

I have a client whose hubby owns an estate agent and she says all there investors are holding fire. A lot of them have already got out she said. She was telling the legislation is way to complicated now and even the estate agents are finding it hard to keep up.

Taxation is a great way out of this IMO. if a small investor with 1 or 2 rentals can get the first 14000 a year tax free you will see a lot more people investing as a pension in property. But to give this they have to be prepared to give better protection for Tenants like longer fixed contracts of 5 years for example.

pod6611

The other factor to remember is that landlords will be fearful of Sinn Fein coming to power and what populist measures they will put in place. The landlord classes are in general not going to be voting for Sinn Fein so there are minimal votes to be lost there.

If I was a landlord I would be fearful and this would feed into any decisions I would have to make.

BlueSkyDreams

I wonder if the Govt will come out and say that legal advice received is that the eviction ban will be challenged sucessfully if extended.

If that is what they have been told, people would at least respect them for being truthful.

Instead we are hearing reasoning like, "the current ban isnt stemming the rise in homelessness, so its not working"

There are multiple routes to homelessness and the eviction ban must at least be helping. So this argument is a deflection tactic and should be called out. Or at the very least backed up with data.

It feels like a soft excuse to end the ban, without acknowledging the real reason (legal challenge would win) because it makes the govt look incompetent.

Will we see any incentivising for landlords to stay in the game?

Surely we will? Not fully convinced myself. If we dont, I predict an exodus of spooked landlords who will get out before the govt change their minds again. Which they probably will.

We will probably have additional funds given to local councils to purchase properties with sitting tenants given notice, which means we will see an upward pressure on house prices as the state competes with private buyers for these limited homes.

Meanwhile, houses purchased without sitting tenant will decrease rental stock as they become owner occupied, leading to increased rents for the limited rental stock remaining.

At the moment, I am not seeing anything positive about the current trajectory.

And the elephant in the room is that there are still no controls on Asylum /Refugee immigration, which shrinks the accom pool even further.

Is there anything else that could go wrong?

Oh wait, rising interest rates and cost of living moving more people towards homelessness and a major slow down in housing consruction linked to Interest rate rises incoming.

The States largest investment fund recrntly put up for sale a site with full permission for 400 apartments in a prime Dublin location.

If they think it isnt viable to build, expect the number of new properties entering construction to drop like a stone.

Flinty997

They wanted small landlords out and they've driven then out through popular opinion vote chasing and legislation.

They never had an answer how to fill the resulting shortage.

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324305#Comment_120324305

I think 5 years is fine, however Irish people don’t tend to sign long leases, maybe that’s changing now, but traditionally no one wanted to be locked in on a lease for that amount of time, because you lose the flexibility of renting, I’ve seen calls for 10 year leasesI personally think you’d be crazy to sign a lease that long, as a tenant more than a landlord, especially if you’re locked in and liable for the remaining rent if you decide to leave after 5 years, 10 years ago was 2013, market was in the doldrums no one knows where we’ll be in 10 years time

Part of the problem is tenants want long term commitment from landlords but do not want to be tied down themselves. Long term leases would add some stability to the market and help to control rents over a longer term. There should be financial penalties for whoever breaks the lease with the fee based on how long is left on the lease.

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324509#Comment_120324509

Exactly this, tenants want to be free to move when they see fit, I’m not sure people are taking on board the implications of longer leases, and that they’re liable for the remaining rent or face a very substantial fine, that if they don’t pay will go on their credit record and prevent them buying a house if that’s their intention. At the moment when the year lease is up tenants stay on and might vacate after 2 years or 3 they give the appropriate notice and that’s that, it won’t be the case with a longer lease, they stand to be liable and could face court appearances if they decide to leave before the lease is up.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324305#Comment_120324305

Will be interesting to see if Tax incentives are offered to LLs to stay.

It makes sense to me, coupled with better mechanism of evicting non paying tenants.

If they could get those 2 parts right, I think being a LL would become significantly more attractive to people.

But perhaps the plan is simply to drive out the small time LL and buy up the houses with surplus tax revenues. Then the govt can become a larger landlord, create flexible tenancies for its tenants and push down rent prices to an extent.

Not a viable solution in my opinion, if it isnt done in tandem with large scale building, but it could be their approach.

dennis72

Listened to a debate on air, it ignores LLs and the market disfunction created by govt/opp and homeless eviction scare mongering interests groups.

This is the crux of the problem ignore the engine all the lights are working visibility most important

The market has gone the way it was predicted I even heard a lab and SF TDs saying we don't want small LLs journalists never asked what will replace them almost nodded in agreement.

LLs provide more than just a home they maintain and pay high taxes

Govt will have to start telling the real story its not just house/homes its managed maintained living solutions needed to replace those who have been taxed and RTBed out resulting with the current record shortage.

Nickindublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324577#Comment_120324577

Cant see Gov buying up homes. The system is broke and it will get a lot worse unless the Gov throw everything they have at it from tax incentives to better legislation. When you make something that should be simple more complicated it doesnt work.

jedenwins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324845#Comment_120324845

Govt are already buying up a certain number of homes through county councils, whether they can/will accelerate that on foot of this latest move I don't know but they option is there already.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324845#Comment_120324845

The govt have already approved the purchase of additional homes from the private landlord market.

Upto 1500 by year end, to serve as social housing.

DubCount

I wonder what stats are coming out of the RTB which may have influenced the government decision. Did de-registrations actually increase during the ban as LLs who had voluntary ending tenancies just got out while they could? Did new registrations fall off a cliff? Is the number of pending eviction notices low relative to reduction in tenancies resulting from the ban? Maybe its not all down to legal advice from AG.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326980#Comment_120326980

I taught the government would keep the ban. However they had no choice but to drop it. Any renewal of the ban would have to at the very least exempt those that would need the properties for themselves and for direct family. This would have allowed LL with 1-2 properties to get back posession. Leaving the ban in place in that senario would have lead to a mass exit from the market. The AG's advice indicated as many of us here taugh thatany extension to the ban would fall on varied property rights. The common good cannot put an unfair burden on an individual or group of individual.

The government now needs to be brave and make changes to the regulations and make tax changes to encourage those with vacent properties to start letting them again. This has been a mess for the last 2-4 years especially in the last 12 months with continual changes that were chasing LL out of the market.

newmember2

Why is it always tax incentives trotted out again and again with never any mention of the current difficulty facing landlords of removing a non-paying tenant? This is surely the biggest risk a landlord is facing?

Grumpypants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328095#Comment_120328095

It's one of them, but 99% of tenants, like 99% of landlords actually get on.

The main issue is the tax is so high it's not an income stream for the landlord. They are on call 24/7 and provide a valuable service that keeps thousands of families housed but make a loss for 20-30 years doing it.

The only way to make back what they have invested is to sell and release the capital.

The market is so tight now that every sale usually goes to a home owner so every sale is a unit lost to the rental sector.

So a tax break of 14k would tilt it so land lords would see the property as an active income stream rather than a potential pension.

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328095#Comment_120328095

The "process" for evicting non-paying or even overholding tenants is crazy and I agree its the elephant in the room. However, consider all the vested interests in keeping the status quo on this from a Government point of view.

The RTB have an interest in keeping the current system. Only Courts can issue an eviction order which can result in the bailiffs calling around to kick out a tenant. Any streamlining of the system would therefore involve a by-passing of the RTB, and they show their relevance and requirement for funding by hearing cases. They dont want to be sidelined.

The Local Authorities have an interest in the current system. When someone is eventually evicted, its the Local Authorities who have to house them. More pressure on emergency accommodation, and local authority housing departments. While someone is squatting in a private rental, its not their problem, so its a convenient way for them to kick the can down the road.

The Government have an interest in keeping the current system. When someone is evicted, they join the homeless statistics. While they squat in private rentals, they are not included in the homeless stats. If a fast track to eviction was introduced, homeless stats would spike upwards, and the government would take a lot of stick for this.

Its way easier to try and encourage landlordism through taxation, than tackle the elephant.

ingo1984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328611#Comment_120328611

Also factor in that there is approximately 38m in rent arrears owed to Dublin City Council. So if they did bring in harsher controls for people not paying rent, would it only apply to private rental sector or would it apply to social tenants renting from local authorities.