Dealer pocketed farmer's payment for bullock he transported.

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Difficulty getting paid from cattle factory.

tanko

A friend of mine sent an animal to a factory with a cattle dealer as part of a load he was sending himself. He handed over the blue card with the animal when it was loaded. The animal was killed under the dealers name and the dealer got the cheque. The dealer has decided that he isn’t going to give the farmer who owned the animal a cent, the factory have washed their hands of the issue and are no help. Is there anything the farmer can do to get paid for his animal?

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757808#Comment_119757808

the animal would have been in the farmers herd number so should have been killed in his name and cheque sent to him - full stop. That’s skullduggery of the highest order.

tanko

I know, it’s a joke, is this a criminal matter?

Lime Tree Farm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757873#Comment_119757873

Surely the dealer would have to prove he had a money trail to the farmer

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757999#Comment_119757999

I’m not sure what you mean, I’ve sent cattle to factories through agents but the cheque was alway paid to me, never to the agent.

893bet

Small claims court an option if less than 2k?

not sure if it applies

893bet

And take on the factory not the dealer.

and spent your days blackening the dealer.

hopeso

Both the factory and dealer are at fault. The factory paid the wrong man, and he kept the money knowing full well it's not his. Unfortunately, the value of one animal won't go far against legal fees, if that's the route he wants to take. The factory's mistake was assuming the whole load of cattle belonged to the same man. But, if they had checked the card and ICBF records like they're supposed to, this wouldn't have happened. I don't know if reporting them to the Dept. would be any use. They'd follow you or me for messing up paperwork, but probably not a factory. Is the factory an independent operation, or part of a group? If they are part of a group, contacting their head office stating that you supplied an animal and never got paid might stir up something....

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757832#Comment_119757832

As far as I can see every factory does this. I agree with you it's wrong. A dealer can kill an animal without transferring it to his own herd number and the factory sends him the cheque Makes a joke of Bord Bia.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758102#Comment_119758102

The factory is a small independent operation, they have been no help to him so far.

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758169#Comment_119758169

It's not just the small ones.

893bet

Threaten a picket and tell them they will lose a lot more when they are closed for a few days.

Then organise a crowd to go. Shower of **** ****.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758299#Comment_119758299

That won’t be happening. He’s a quiet man and wouldn’t be one for causing a fuss, it’s approx €1500 he’s owed.

Sheep breeder

The dealer couldn’t kill the animal in his herd as it was not transferred on the computer and in the factory system the animal has to be approved for slaughter by the Dept stall as in the correct herd and fit for slaughter. The factory would be in trouble for paying the dealer.

tanko

Who would the factory be in trouble with??

newholland mad

If it were me the first stop I'd be making would be the nearest garda station.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758991#Comment_119758991

Sadly pointless. Civil matter is what you would be told. Same as if a friend owed you money or if you paid a deposit to a builder to do work and they didn’t come etc.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758343#Comment_119758343

Well that’s 9/10 of the problem and why the dealer is riding him.

Is there more to the story. Why is dealer refusing?

If he has exhausted diplomatic solutions I would go full on and would be picketing the dealers house. Following him to the Marts where he is buying and standing behind him with a sign. I would lie the loss of the 1500 and devote a month to making sure every single person in the trade knew what happened. Follow his next load of cattle and block entry to the factory. Make him wish he paid.

But I am a thick ****.

Tonynewholland

The department shouldn't be turning a blind eye to dealers killing animals in the farmers name. It would stop this kind of thing happening

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758771#Comment_119758771

As far as I can remember Revenue issued a notice a few years ago directing factories to only pay the person who name/herd number is the last recorded owner on the card/AIM system. We had a discussion on F&F about it before and @Bass Reeves might remember it better. It was something to do with anti money laundering - I think the Slab Murphy case instigated it.

I would contact the IFA and see if they could help - AFAIK you don't have to be a member.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759349#Comment_119759349

I was just reading this thread when you mentioned me.

@tanko

The farmers should have no dealing with the dealer/agent. He should send a registered letter to the processor instructing them to pay him.

Now there is 2-3 issues to clarify

Was the cheque for that animal put in the dealer name. Then it's the processors fault. They have to made an error.

There was a case just after the last downturn. A youngish dealer carried a load of cattle belong to a farmer to a processors ( one of the big three) and told them they were his. The processors made the cheque out to the dealer, he cashed it and went abroad. The processor at the start tried to leave the liability with the farmer but after a solicitors letter they paid up. This case was in the FJ if I remember right.

The other senario is if the cheque was in the farmers name and cashed by the dealer. In this case it's fraud however the processor handed the cheque over to the dealer. It's up to them to get the cheque refunded and pay the farmer.

For a long time after the first senario processors would only make the cheque out to the farmer. It's seems bad habits are starting to creep in again.

@tanko this farmers need to deal with the processor only. It's not his job to deal with the agent. Adding to that the agent has a relationship with the processor which adds to the processors liability. You cannot transfer your liability to a third party. If John owes me 50 pounds and I owe Pat 50 pounds I cannot transfer my liability to John and let Pat collect it.

The farmer should follow the following process. Registered letter requesting payment by return of post Indicating that he will be taking legal action in case if non payment within 10 calender days and that the processor will be responsible for any legal costs

If no payment is received within ten days give it 3-4 days more these b0llaxes often will try to let you spend your own money and time just for revenge. If it was me I would use the smalls claims. If you friend is a member of a farm organisation he could involve them. Even if not sometimes they will help.

Basically all the processor has to do it is issue the cheque to you and stop it from the agents next cheque

Base price, U am not sure if revenue ever issued such a directives. I only remember it in relation to the case after the last recession. Marts are under a similar obligation. Dealers had a habbit of getting cheques for cattle paid to them. A few marts got burnt and most have stopped the practice entirely. Marts may a stop transport costs or add buying fees but if there is a disagreement the money is paid in full to the farmer.

Anto_Meath

If the farmer goes on to Agfood and prints off the details for the animal in question it will show it entered his farm on xx date and then on xx date it was transferred to the factory, bring this to the factory as proof that the animal was never in the dealers herd, show this to the procurement manager and head vet in the factory saying that unless he is paid there and then you will be heading off to Revenue, The Department Agriculture and the Gardas to get this issue sorted.

The head vet in any factory is the most important person in it, nothing enters or leaves without their say so, generally they are older semi retired vets and the last thing they want is hassle so they wouldn't tolerate any messing by the factory that might mean unnecessary work for them. Because after all if they allowed an animal to be killed that wasn't fully compliant (movements not correct) then they are responsible.

As for the dealer he is a p**ck and I would make sure everyone knows he is a prick.

whelan2

Could the dealer not just have transferred the animal into his head electronically himself without the permission of the owner and got paid that way. Movement goes through automatically

Anto_Meath

As far as I know it has to be the seller that does the transfer, or the mart with the owners permission.

whelan2

Dealer who buys calves from me moves them electronically online, I've to do nothing

I told ya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758991#Comment_119758991

Yes, make a complaint to AnGS. Would have thought that €1500 was small money to have the Gardai and/or the Dept investigating.

Also, the bad publicity for both the dealer and factory. Not from an agricultural background, but I was always of the belief that the farming community stuck together in these matters. Wouldn't look good for the dealer or factory to be associated with this carry on.

Is 'Larceny by finding' still on the statute books?

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759737#Comment_119759737

Yes the seller has to look for permission to transfer but it's the sellers job to send in the notification or do it online. The seller can't do this part which is why farmers won't always know it's done unless they go online and check. I know of some dealers who will have animals mostly cows for months and still kill them in the farmers name. Mostly it will only show up if your doing a TB test.

It's a flaw in the system that only the buyer can do the notification part. I think both parties should be able to do it.

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759787#Comment_119759787

The calf exporters are allowed to do it that way not sure if anyone else can

whelan2

Any stock he gets from me, whether cull cows or what ever he has them out of my herd that evening

Lime Tree Farm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759224#Comment_119759224

But at least it would bring his antics to their attention - the dealer wouldn't want them seeking his side of the story, if nothing else