Dealer pocketed farmer's payment for bullock he transported.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763081#Comment_119763081

A dealers no is open to cross compliance and unannounced Veterinary inspection at any time. However it is not restricted to the quantity of animals sold the same as a normal herd number i.e. 100 animals within a 3 month period.

A civil matter would be if you did work or sold something to someone and they refused to pay saying your work was bad or the product was faulty or whatever, i.e. a matter of opinion. This is theft, plain and simple.

whelan2

Is there any chance the farmer owed the dealer money?

Ronin247

Is the easiest route not a simple registered letter to the Factory

Dear Factory

You recently killed a bullock ( card no/herd no) for me on **-**-2022 and as of yet I have received no payment from you as per regulations. If payment is not received in 10 days from date of this letter then I will refer the matter to a solicitor and pursue all legal costs and damages.

Sincerely

Bullockowner.

I know it is very simplified but if the farmer is a quiet man who isnt into fussing, it is a nice easy approach he can do without having to call/face anyone. It puts the onus squarely on the factory. If anyone knows the regulation number that says only the herd owner gets paid that could be added. I am sure others more capable can copy and paste that letter and improve it.

Every journey begins with the first step.

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763773#Comment_119763773

There was a case a few years back where a man making sheds was taking money but not supplying the sheds. A few farmers went to the guards. They investigated and took him to court. The judge wouldn't listen to it and said it was a civil matter and even said the farmers were wasting Garda time and using tax payers money.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763988#Comment_119763988

No, there is not.

148multi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764012#Comment_119764012

It hard to know what's going on sometimes, a mart that buys cattle on the ground and pays cash, is allegedly selling them at the mart sales in the farmer's name.

If it happened to me I would write a letter to the local AGS fraud officer,they will know what's right and wrong.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764514#Comment_119764514

That is a two to three weeks process minimum. Easiest thing is send the letter as I and @Ronin247 have stated. It's a civil matter. The farmer loaded the cattle voluntary on to the truck. The problem is the processors has failed to pay him for them.

This was fought and won before back after the last recession. It's not a departmental issue, it's not a revenue issue it's a debt collection issue.

Write the letter as Ronin posed. Add that failure to pay will result in any extra cost recovering the payment will be added to the debt.

It's a stupid mistake by the processor. It's up to them to resolve it. It's similar if you buy an animal at the mart and there is a flaw in the animal not announced. The mart will try to fob you off with getting you to deal with the seller. That is legally not the process. You deal with the mart.

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764599#Comment_119764599

If it was a mistake by the processor wouldn't they happily fix the problem for the farmer when he contacted them. The department and Bord Bia know there is a loophole in the system and have been turning a blind eye to it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764151#Comment_119764151

Ah FFS. Bet if this shyster "fell over" on the farmers land and sued it wouldn't be a civil matter.

Dunedin

Still get it hard to fathom how a dealer would do such a thing.

@tanko taking it at face value that your friend is a decent sort who owed no money to the dealer. That makes it all the more bewildering as news like that would spread like wildfire in a community and no one in their right mind would send an animal with that agent ever again - I know I certainly wouldn’t.

heightened by the fact it was ‘poor auld Tommy who wouldn’t say boo to a fly’

mr.stonewall

The more I read about and see dealers in action, is there any benefit to having them in the supply chain. Since online bidding at marts it has shook the order and brought a level of fairness around the ring or screen.

The only major benefits, I can see it allows the farmer to offload stock easily, namely calves and cows, allows some farmers to have stock purchased for them without having to do it themselves. And for the factories it allows them to gather a larger number of stock without having to interfere with base pricing. It would be interesting to see the % of the weekly and annual kill thru dealers herds.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764151#Comment_119764151

But that was prima facie a civil matter.

It would be a civil matter here if the dealer agreed to buy the bullock from the farmer but didn't pay. That isn't what happened

patsy_mccabe

I've heard cases locally of dealers forging the seller's signature on the animal transfer forms.

To be specific, this form - NBAS 31A

"Application Form for a Certificate of Compliance for the Movement of Bovine from a Single Holding to Another Holding"

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764695#Comment_119764695

In 2010 there was as a similar case. I posted about it earlier. The processors paid after being threatened with legal procedures. Marts seldom issue a cheque to anyone but a herd owner.

There was a stage after the incident I posted about where processors only issued cheques to herd owner. Obliviously this has changed. But it just a matter putting your case on paper and starting the recovery process.

When the farmer rang it would have been the procurement manager that he spoke to. This was the lad that f@@ked up. Untill you put it in writing it will not be taken out of his hands. It's exactly the same with marts they try to fob you off by getting you to ring the other farmer if there is the issue.

Send the letter to the factory manager. Words as has been posted. No cheque within a fortnight. Into your solicitor or the small claims court if your confident to deal with it that way.

If I was getting a solicitors to send a letter they would be paying that bill as well.

K.G.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763679#Comment_119763679

Didn't realise there was a limit. We would exceed that in the spring months but I suppose its all outward movement s with us except maybe a bull or something so if they looked at us our movement s would tally with a standard spring calving setup.i had a case once where a fella bought calves off us for export so I didn't permit them.he then sold them on to others with some even going through a mart in galway on my herd number even though he got paid.to be honest it was a right sh#t show that took me a long time to get clear of.some of them never showed up anywhere else .it's no wonder the dept can seem a little heavy handed with people when you hear the stunts fellas are at

J.O. Farmer

Definition of a dealer from here applies to buying and selling within 30 days rather than selling home bred calves born on farm

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/9bbcf-animal-welfare-approval-and-registration-of-dealers/

In the case of cattle and pigs a dealer is defined as a person who purchases and sells to another person within a period of 30 days. A person who buys and resells within 30 days less than 100 cattle in any 12 month period will be excluded from the requirements to be approved as a dealer.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119774977#Comment_119774977

I got it wrong. I see it's buying in and selling more that 100 within 30 days, I thought it was 3 months.

whelan2

But how does the dealer that buys in 100s of calves for export do it properly?

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775183#Comment_119775183

I'd say he's buying for an exporter. The exporter does the paper work the dealer doesn't

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119773984#Comment_119773984

If farmers that sell to dealers look up where the animals actually end up they'd be surprised. Never leave it up to a dealer to send in the notification. Print it off get him to sign and send it in yourself.

whelan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775295#Comment_119775295

But the calves, heifers or whatever go into the same number registered to him. Then get moved on. In fairness his paperwork is 💯. I have dealt with the bad ones so just glad to eventually find one who does things right

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775335#Comment_119775335

Is he an exporter himself or does sell to an exporter after putting them in his own herd number. Around here there are a good few lads buying calves that go straight to the exporter. Can cause problems if the calves are near the age limit and not transferred in time after leaving the farm.

ChippingSodbury

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/sligochampion/news/sligo-odd-job-man-who-got-money-for-jobs-he-didnt-finish-found-guilty-after-trial-42077606.html

I know it's behind a paywall but the general gist of the story is that he went round to about 5 or 6 different people, mostly elderly, got paid in advance, for a day or twos work, did about 1/2 hour in each and never came back. Found guilty of stealing the money. Looks like the farmers above got a raw deal.

Mod: Image of article removed.

Tonynewholland

It's the way it should be handled. The farmers were unlucky that day but it's the way the legal system works. Putting work your colleagues way.

whelan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775433#Comment_119775433

Some calves go for export others he moves on. Most of my culls go through him to other farmers but go out of my herd into his dealer number.

Base price

@tanko Did your friend ever get sorted for his bullock.

tanko

No, he hasn’t yet afaik.

Rusheseverywhere

He needs to get cute; tell the factory he thinks the bullock was injected with Imizol; 213 day withdrawal on that. They would have a lovely job recallling that meat.

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119846740#Comment_119846740

That could cause more problems for the farmer.