Leinster v Munster match thread

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119783876#Comment_119783876

I can’t say I’ve come across anyone say something to the extent of “Leinster got out of jail” (I never thought they were in real jeopardy of losing) but the reason Munster are attracting praise is because 1) it’s evidence we’re going in the right direction; this is a team that lost to Dragon’s, what, 4 weeks ago?

And 2) as I said earlier, the level of personnel we had vs the level of personnel Leinster had. I posted the following in the Munster thread. That’s a huge part of the context.

https://twitter.com/Colliniho/status/1583953710258216961?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1583953710258216961%7Ctwgr%5E755b657b10b68da826c92bd952fe03a36aaf4571%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fdiscussion%2F2057957948%2Fmunster-team-talk-thread-vii-the-larkham-asylum%2Fp473

Madeoface

This thread was heading into some strange places..

I agree with TRC10, Munster were not up to much. Despite only going in 1 PT up at half time I didn't doubt with the bench and more of the same, Leinster would pull away.

It's a sad state of affairs for Munster and down to the mistake of going with JVG for 2 or 3 years longer than they should. The suits would want to look long and hard at what they've done to the province down there...

I agree with all being said about the Aviva, terrible experience for such a great stadium.

cuttingtimber22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119783876#Comment_119783876

Maybe - but Munster gifted Leinster a try. Munster left a try on the field towards the end (similar to your Leinster examples). Looking at gifs online James Ryan could well have had a yellow. The first Leinster try was technically a penalty and another ref may have spotted it. Munster definitely had the worse luck with key injuries - Kleyn was a massive loss.

I suggest banking your BP win - roll on 26th Dec in TP.

ulsteru20s

Munster should find this game encouraging because the players they should be building their next good team around played well. That’s basically all there is to it.

I personally think they should find it very encouraging because Crowley even at 15 showed he has the skillset of an elite 10, and elite 10s are rare. But, i’m possibly higher than him than most.

The only slight worry from a leinster pov would be their set piece. They really should have had more dominance at scrum time. I need to look up the numbers but i thought the lineout was messy enough too. They should have scored like 3 more tries but i think they will clean that up.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119783876#Comment_119783876

People giving the defense no credit just dont understand the game.

Sure osbourne should have scored, but cian healy isnt a 9. The reason mcgrath wasnt in place was pressure and work rate by the defense. The reason the ball was not grounded past the line twice was workrate not leinster mistakes.

Sure leinster could and should have scored more, but the reason they didn't is down to munster defence forcing errors AND Leinster making errors.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119782192#Comment_119782192

Ben isnt near robust enough to be a 12, He hasnt really ever been tried as a 12 and dont see it happeneing..

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784291#Comment_119784291

Healy isn't a center. He might possibly make a good 15 if he can work on his fielding, it would be nice to have him on the field just for his long range kicking. If Carbery or Crowley took most of the penalties but Healy took the long distance ones to punish teams for mistakes inside the middle third of the pitch

Akrasia

But tbh, I think he wants to play 10 and would likely leave before converting to a different position

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784384#Comment_119784384

I dont think he is a 15 either. Crowley is far more likely to play positions other than 10.

Homesick Alien

000

Homesick Alien

@lawrencesummers Look if you enjoy the atmosphere of a sales convention at your rugby matches that's great, personally I would prefer 10 or 15k people who are into the match and actual fans than 45k who don't really care. That's not what I go to matches for. If I want zero atmosphere I can save my few bob and watch from home.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784477#Comment_119784477

Who exactly are you referring this to? You do need atmosphere at games but where do you replace the money from the extra people going to these games in Aviva. These games in Aviva are big earners that would be crazy to lose..

Homesick Alien

Lawrencesummers but phone won't let me quote for some reason. Just seems a weird attitude to have that money is more important than atmosphere and the experience of a live sporting event. It's a Leinster thing I guess..

Homesick Alien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119781991#Comment_119781991

I know it's gas - they just stole it. But it's the Fisher Price version just played over the tannoy after every score. Just embarrassing.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784531#Comment_119784531

Its not a Leinster thing. The extra income is huge and its easy money, in post covid times even more vital as groups still are trying to get back to normal. Many games do have poor atmosphere but i think thats a lot of the people who do go to these games especially when Leinster have won this tie so much recently it doesnt help atmosphere either.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784456#Comment_119784456

Oh right now he's far from a good 15. he would need to go through a porter style conversion process. His best attributes are his long range kicking and his long range passing. Both of those are desirable as a 15. What we would lose in dynamic ball carrying, we could gain in kick transition and exiting from our 22

He would need to vastly improve his fielding and last ditch tackling, but if he didn't have to concentrate on playmaking he could play to his strengths

cuttingtimber22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784514#Comment_119784514

Well if there is a crap atmosphere do you think people will want to see them again - at RDS or LR? It’s an expensive day out for many but I have heard a few comments to say ‘will not be bothered next year’…

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784531#Comment_119784531

It’s not just a Leinster thing tho, it’s the realities of professional sport, especially post-Covid, unfortunately. I’d absolutely prefer 10k invested fans bringing a brilliant atmosphere every week too, but I also absolutely understand clubs trying to maximise their incomes.

We’ve seen 2 clubs in England go to the wall in the last few weeks; rugby isn’t popular enough to be able to take any additional income for granted, unfortunately.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784599#Comment_119784599

Even so, I’d be surprised to see it fall below, say 37k attendance; that’s still double the RDS capacity.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784599#Comment_119784599

People say that every year, people moan about it every year, people come back every year.

It gets blown out of proportion, yes it’s annoying but I find the most annoying people the ones who have to let everyone within 10 seats know how knowledgeable they are of the game. I much prefer the RDS but a couple of games like this a year is fine with me if it goes towards keeping the lights on.

cuttingtimber22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784603#Comment_119784603

I fully understand the why in terms of finances (especially now) but is not going to attract people back - unless they are into lots of announcements.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784639#Comment_119784639

Yesterday was one of the better days tbh. many of the previous games have been far far worse. if many more of the games were like yesterday then it would be a good thing

Former Former Former

Munster would have gone to the wall a few years ago without an IRFU bailout.

Anyone thinking that Irish rugby should be turning away a million euro for one match just for the sake of a better atmosphere is very likely not going to many rugby matches to begin with.

Akrasia

Munster v SA in Pairc UI Caoimh will have 45k fans there. It'll be interesting to compare the atmosphere between these two fixtures.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784658#Comment_119784658

It was grand yesterday. Usual lads out for pints a few times which is a bit of a pain, I don’t mind standing up a few times my main objection is if they do it when the ball is in play. I find the seating in the aviva a bit tight compared to the RDS which makes letting people past a bit harder.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784670#Comment_119784670

Not really as completely different. one off v touring team.. regular fixture etc etc

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784670#Comment_119784670

Erh no it won't. A thursday nighty in thomond in a one off against a touring international side is about as far from a Saturday evening in the Aviva full of families and day trippers.

Hell I even saw four lads in tuxes and two women in ball gowns up in section 511 on Saturday.

You won't get that in thomond

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784884#Comment_119784884

The game is on in PUC in Cork and it will be full of casuals

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784509#Comment_119784509

If i go to a game i don't really care what the other fans do.

Ive been both passengers, plenty of times the one on a jolly with friends that havent been seen in years and a match is a small part of the night out.

Ive been to games where the selection, tactics, formations, performances and intricacies of the game have consumed me to the point where i will ignore who is alongside me.

Some people dont realise that rugby is just simply entertainment, its an event just like a boxing match, theatre, cinema, wff, premership soccer or whatever your paying your few quid towards that will temporarily distract you from the banalities of life and provide an excellent form of escapism.

Thats not to say i dont know where your coming from, Ive given up on internationals in the aviva due to a few reasons, one of which is the scant attention most people pay, the constant standing up and sitting down for beer and toilets coupled with ridiculous cost of attending.

Just because other people are not on your wavelength doesn't make them wrong, and getting put out by it should tell you that you need to live and let live a bit more. I can see both sides of the fence because ive been on both many a time.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784897#Comment_119784897

Same point.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784897#Comment_119784897

full of casuals? Isnt every fan a casual or can some of them be professional?

Are we running the risk of some people declaring themselves superior supporters to others?

People have paid their money to attend, once they comply with the (actual) rules of the grounds then you cant have any valid complaint, unless you want to ask the promoters to lock the toilets and close the bars during the game.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784897#Comment_119784897

here is a good example.

Im due to attend that game. 4 of us have tickets and the last time we were in each other's company was a champions cup fixture the January before that virus kicked off.

we haven't shared a drop in more than 2 and a half years and have made a plan for that evening which involves babysitters, half days, closing a business early, taking a friday off and other sacrifices.

Its gonna be an early start, a bit of grub and hopefully a few pints at a game which is nothing other than an exhibition for a second or third string munster side against a south african team that probably wont have two starters from their world cup win.

Should we worry about a ‘serious’ fan taking issue with our approach to the game?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119781800#Comment_119781800

Clearly wasn't the question I posed.

I asked why are they carrying a guy in their full squad who is shortly going to turn 24 years old, has only got 1 appearance (in the most emergency of emergency situations), and they clearly don't trust in even a dire situation to give him any game time?

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784670#Comment_119784670

Comparing the two will be about as relevant as comparing Devin Toners clearout on Coombes to Jean Kleyns elbow to the head of Osborne...

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119785868#Comment_119785868

You could ask a similar question with regards McKee and and Dan Sheehan at the moment, tbh. And given Kelleher's injury and Sheehan's importance to Ireland, it's a far, far more pressing question, tbh. (Yes, McKee is year 3 academy etc. etc.)

In any case, I'd wager he's way down the wage bill, they are hoping he can improve and 23-24 is plenty young for a prop. And he's also had his injury issues (I think he missed at least one full season with a knee injury). They obviously thought the contract was worth it.

And as far as I know, was originally a loosehead and has transitioned to tighthead, so there's going to be a learning curve there too.

In this particular game, I'd wager it's because Munster were still within reach of getting something out of the game up until the 76th minute and Rowntree felt we were in a better position to do that with Loughman on.

After all, Leinster were able to bring a Lion off the bench that he would've been scrummaging against.

I've probably listed enough reasons there for ya...

Buddy Bubs

Turning down that kind of money would be mismanagement of a business, and that's what the IRFU, Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht are. Big businesses with high turnover and high costs. As are every other professional team, including Worcester and Wasps.

You have to have stability to plan,to progress and healthy finances bring that.

They entertain the crowd but the crowd are customers every bit as much as fans.

If you think they're going to make decisions based on atmosphere you're asleep.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119786514#Comment_119786514

Not a like for like comparison really; McKee is an academy player, and the jury is out as to whether or not he'll ever make the grade at Leinster. James French is a fully contracted senior player, who has literally never gotten a sniff of first team rugby, despite being part of the system there for

In the example you're talking about, Leinster have two Lions quality players at hooker as well ahead of him, and Dan Sheehan has been utterly superb this year.

In the James French example, there isn't a European Cup standard tight head in the pecking order ahead of him (jury obviously still out on Knox and Salanoa at this point), and yet they feel the need to get a loose head switching over rather than giving him a chance. They chose to extend this guy as recently as January.

You're obviously right that they felt they had a better chance of getting something out of the game without introducing him, but it still looks like a questionable use of finite resources carrying a guy who they seem to have zero aspirations for.

RichieRich_89

French has only been training as a tighhead for two or three seasons probably, which is something to consider. But I'd agree. It's not looking very promising for him if they're so hesitant to use him. It's been ages since Leinster tried to convert Loughman to tighthead, and that experiment didn't last very long.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787312#Comment_119787312

If nothing else it can't be good for the players confidence to see a player shifted over (and getting eaten to boot) in lieu of him getting any minutes at all.

And now they've signed John Ryan for the next few weeks/months so French probably won't get any minutes while the other guys are away either.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787312#Comment_119787312

Not a like for like comparison really;

Which is specifically why I said “similar”, not the same. And even caveated it with “year 3 academy”. There’s still a point there tho.

In the example you're talking about, Leinster have two Lions quality players at hooker as well ahead of him, and Dan Sheehan has been utterly superb this year.

Not in the last 5 games or so they haven’t, with Kelleher’s injury (and indeed Tracy’s). Which was kinda my whole point. No disagreement Sheehan has been playing superbly. He’s also been playing an awful, awful lot, especially for a hooker. Which again, was kinda my whole point. He’s missed a solitary minute in the last 4 games.

McKee has had 9 minutes across 3 of those and was on the bench for all of them.

…it still looks like a questionable use of finite resources carrying a guy who they seem to have zero aspirations for.

Ya, and if that’s how it turns out, they won’t be the last Province to make recruitment mistakes. If you’re expectation is for flawless or error-free recruitment, then the issue is with your expectation.

And like I said, he was transitioning from LH to TH. If a Lions players like Porter can have a few troubles converting to loosehead (which is generally considered an easier position to switch to than the reverse) than I think it’s reasonable to give him a bit of time.

It just comes across like nitpicking about our recruitment of our, what, 5th choice TH? Every team has guys that they are “carrying” as you put it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787546#Comment_119787546

I'm not nitpicking. I think I've made the point before (which sparked the endless was Billy Holland above average or not debate) that in my view something Munster have been guilty about for a long time is carrying guys on their wider squad who are way below the required level, for way too long.

The front row has been a significant area of weakness for Munster for a long long time, and still they're carrying guys there who don't even justify the 'journeyman' label, since evidently the management have virtually zero faith in the player at this point.

Plus, I'll comfortably bet John McKee, will get a lot of gametime over the next month or so (along with Lee Barron and possibly Tadgh McElroy), and by season's end, Leinster will have a good sense of what they have in him. French just got pushed even further down the pecking order with Munster resigning a 34-year-old guy, and is probably even further away from getting any minutes than he was before.

awec

Munster don't have the same player pool as Leinster have available to them, I would doubt they are able to be too ruthless when it comes to cutting players loose and like Ulster / Connacht have to carry some passengers to essentially make up the numbers.

They gambled on French and let Ryan go, it didn't work, but easy to say in hindsight.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787589#Comment_119787589

So you’re saying he’s below the required level but they also should have played him in this match? Right ok….

There’s examples in every squad. Like, Deeny is nearly 23 and his only started were when Leinster were already qualified. I don’t think it’s as big a deal as you’re making out.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787611#Comment_119787611

But they haven't "gambled" on him - He has taken the field once in the ~4 years he's been there.

If he hasn't shown anything in 4 years of time with the squad to warrant getting even some time off the bench in a home game against a Zebre or Dragons there's not much gambling going on to be fair.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787643#Comment_119787643

If we’re to continue the gambling metaphor, we were also risking a lot less as he was also likely a significantly lower stake. (He’s likely on way lower wages than John Ryan would have been).

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787643#Comment_119787643

But what was the choice? French vs a 34 year old John Ryan?

Unless there's some other young tighthead in the academy ready to go what can they do?

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787648#Comment_119787648

Fully accept that it's not a major financial risk , but it still seems like an awful waste for all concerned.

He's about 6 months older than Keynan Knox and has a single appearance for the 1st team compared to 29 or 30 for Knox.

Even allowing for his extended injury time off , he should at least be well into double figures for appearances at this stage.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787668#Comment_119787668

They could actually let French on to the pitch..

If he's worth his place in the squad then he should be getting minutes - Not saying every squad player should be an international in waiting , but they should be trusted/allowed to take the field and play.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787619#Comment_119787619

No, I'm saying if he's below the level required he shouldn't be in the wider squad at all.

Similarly, I don't necessarily think Deeny is a like for like comparison; he signed his first full contract just last March, and was injured for a considerable period of time. He's gotten some opportunities at least since then, and toured with EI which would have limited his opportunities earlier this year. French signed his first deal 12 months before that and was subsequently extended as well.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787680#Comment_119787680

And Tadhg Beirne had, what, about 40 minutes for Leinster before he was let go? Teams make recruitment mistakes from both sides of the spectrum.

If Munster’s biggest problem was their 5th choice TH at the moment, I’d be delighted tbh….

CIARAN_BOYLE

I fully agree that French is squad filler.

The problem is that Munster already moved on Ryan who probably would have required a bigger salary and was already gambling on Knox and Salonoa.

What we have learned is that Loughman is ahead of French as a tighthead in the eyes of the Munster coaches.

Someone deemed it necessary to carry him for numbers.

It's not ideal but it's not a massive problem.

He doesn't cost much and gametime can be invested in the other two young props assuming they are fit.