Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993706#Comment_121993706

Perhaps you would be so kind as to read beyond the first line - which was in response to another poster - and engage in debate on the rest of my post which was bang on point.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993947#Comment_121993947

I read beyond the first line, read the whole post, and the reason there isn’t a thread discussing violence against women and girls* has nothing to do with the idea of hatred of women and girls, and everything to do with the fact that it’s well-known the discussion would generate little interest, if any interest whatsoever.

There was a thread on here a couple of years back (yes, you read that right- years!), in what was After Hours at the time (long before Current Affairs forum existed), and there were some fantastic, interesting and memorable and necessary contributions and discussions. I’m not going to dig it out as I imagine the posters who contributed wouldn’t want their post history being brought up again. It didn’t get much attention or traction like some threads in Current Affairs do, but it was out in the open and I imagine cathartic for the posters who contributed.

*I refuse to use that acronym as it causes me to do a double-take for all the wrong reasons when I see it, it’s just a terrible acronym for what it’s intended to refer to. I just don’t like acronyms anyway though as a matter of principle - they’re shorthand for laziness and complacency, and shouldn’t be used IMO to describe an issue as serious as violence against women and girls.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993684#Comment_121993684

Some well-known celebrities in the UK said that JK Rowling should be prosecuted under existing hate speech legislation in the belief that it stirs up hatred against trans people.

Do you agree with them; and do you agree that this "offense" of misgendering should — in an ideal world — be prosecuted under Ireland's hate speech legislation, if someone decides to commit it?

I'm not asking what you think the law says, but what you hope the law should achieve.

Shoog

Misgendering is just the hight of incivility and bad manners. I personally don't think bad etiquette is a crime though.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994550#Comment_121994550

The height of bad manners…that is a new one.

You don't personally think it is a crime, but under this legislation is can be seen that way. So what you personally believe is irrelevant.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994621#Comment_121994621

You can make a complaint if you think 🤔 ts a crime - but under this legislation it will go nowhere fast.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993947#Comment_121993947

I apologise. I had thought I was responding to another poster. While not directed at you. My point still stands. Pointess whataboutery whinging about there being no thread about Violence against women is ridiculous nonsense. If posters want a thread about Violence against women then start it instead of whinging here there isn't one just to do a point scoring whataboutery.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994631#Comment_121994631

Please tell us how it will go nowhere fast.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994528#Comment_121994528

There were claims this Bill will make misgendering illegal. Jk Rowling isn't in Ireland. Scotland isn't in Ireland. Back up the claims or get off the stage.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994621#Comment_121994621

Everybody keeps opining that this Bill makes misgendering illegal. Prove it.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994663#Comment_121994663

Is gender not a protected class in this new legislation? 🧐

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994676#Comment_121994676

Misgendering is not in of itself hate unless accompanied by other threatening behaviour or speech. As I said it just poor manners.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994676#Comment_121994676

Thats not proof. Case closed. All this whinging that misgendering will be illegal is pathetic nonsense and nobody making the claim has anything to prove it other than hot air. Nothing. No proof.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994687#Comment_121994687

You are incorrect on that one.

And before you ask, section 7: Offence of incitement to violence or hatred against persons on account of their protected characteristics

Section 8: Offence of condonation, denial or gross trivialisation of genocide, etc., against persons on account of their protected characteristics

No clue at all where you think it's not misgendering unless you say/do something else. Might you be telling fibs there?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994550#Comment_121994550

https://archive.is/5TEU4

Not everyone agrees with you though. This is from March 10th, ie before the new Scottish law came into force on April 1st:

Trans activists urge Scottish police to arrest JK Rowling over ‘misgendering hate crime’:

Trans rights activists are attempting to have JK Rowling arrested by Scottish police over “misgendering” after a complaint was dismissed in England. Northumbria Police last week confirmed that it did not believe the Harry Potter author had committed a criminal offenceby publicly calling India Willoughby, a transgender TV personality, a male. Willoughby had gone to police claiming Rowling had “definitely committed a crime” by referring to the former Celebrity Big Brother contestant as male. The 58-year-old former newsreader has vowed to appeal against “their decision not to prosecute” and is to request a review of the decision. Meanwhile, Willoughby’s supporters claimed to have submitted complaints against Rowling, who lives in Edinburgh, to Police Scotland in the hope that the force will come to a different decision.

And this from March 21st:

SNP admits JK Rowling could be targeted by trans activists under new law

So TRAs were planning to use the law to set the police on her. Now of course they're complaining that Rowling herself, and her followers, got in there before them. But that's only because she's wealthy enough to take the establishment on: the whole point of the law was to intimidate ordinary people, those who can't do like her, into silence.

And we don't have a Joanne Rowling in Ireland, nobody with her wealth anyway, so the chilling effect will be real here. Which is, as I said, the whole point of the gender ideology part of it in Ireland too. It's not because anyone really thinks it's going to prevent any crimes, it's about preventing criticism of gender ideology. Mixed in, in Ireland, with a few other things, some of which could be useful.

But let's not rewrite history and pretend that nobody ever intended to use the Scottish law to silence Rowling. They really thought they could. And there's no reason to think Irish TRAs are more tolerant.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994723#Comment_121994723

That doesn't in any way support your claim. Been a prescribed group doesn't make misgendering a crime.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994676#Comment_121994676

“Gender (which means gender identity or expression)” to be exact.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994725#Comment_121994725

As has been pointed out many times this is neither Scotland and no case of misgendering has been accepted as a hate crime even in Scotland. This is more weak stuff.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994743#Comment_121994743

It does support that what you said was false, and yes it does prove that misgendering (gender is a protected characteristic) COULD be an offence.

This is in the PDF of the legislation for gods sake.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994755#Comment_121994755

You completely glossed over the definition you shared of hate speech in that. Nice work.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994650#Comment_121994650

My questions were related to what you hoped were legitimate grounds to be prosecuted under the proposed hate speech legislation in this country.

Just one last time — in an ideal world, do you believe that misgendering / the equivalent of JK Rowling's utterances, should be criminalised in Ireland, under this or equivalent legislation?

I'm very clear about what I think should be prosecutable and what shouldn't.

I'd be interested to hear where your thoughts are on the same matter — not what the law thinks, but what you think the laws should say in regards to this matter and the legislation proposed.

And if you believe the proposed legislation isn't sufficient enough, that would be worth hearing too. Do you believe the proposed legislation goes far enough?

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994759#Comment_121994759

Avoid avoid avoid, this tactic is really childish at this stage.

The definition I shared is from the legislation, it actually says that: A person may be found guilty of an offence under section 7 or 8 irrespective of whether the communication of material or behaviour the subject of the offence was successful in inciting another person to violence or hatred against a person or a group of persons on account of their protected characteristics (within the meaning of section 7 or 8, as the case may be) or any of those characteristics.

That is not my definition, it's the legislations.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994725#Comment_121994725

Because it’s not like JK, one of the most ardent advocates of free speech a couple of years back before she bounced on a hot-button issue that she could use to promote the idea of free speech, would ever use the law to silence anyone… she’s only outdone in her efforts by that other advocate of free speech, Elon Musk, and then there was Stephen Fry before them both, another free speech advocate, came out with the line about a whine… then took a huff himself when he was insulted 🙄

Every single one of these high-profile “free speech” advocates, it turns out what they really mean is “free speech for me, and I’ll sick my lawyers on you!”

You really think JK wasn’t advised by her lawyers about how close she could go to the line without crossing it before she made those tweets? Before she so much as publishes a word? Every single word, tweet, expression, article, is scrutinised by her legal counsel, her publicist, a whole team, before one of her aides presses post to update her Twitter feed 😒

The law doesn’t concern itself with anyone’s wealth - if they commit a criminal offence, they’re likely to be prosecuted for it if it’s in the public interest to do so, regardless of how long cases may take. You only have to see how things are working out for celebrities and politicians whose net worth puts JK in the ha’penny place. It has nothing to do with her money or influence or anything else. It’s just she didn’t commit a crime, and she knew she was never going to commit a crime, but the goading Scottish police to arrest her was a nice touch for her idiot followers to lap up like gurning goons 🙄

buried

lol This thing is such a jumbled up mess, it's own advocates don't even know what they are cheerleading for

gym_imposter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994830#Comment_121994830

Don't mistake acting coy with not knowing

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995136#Comment_121995136

There’s no acting coy or not knowing. Several times now the same theme of the thread has repeated itself:

Poster 1: So this looks like I’ll be prosecuted for stating facts?

Poster 2: There’s nothing in either current or proposed legislation that suggests you’ll be prosecuted for stating facts.

Some time and a couple of posts later…

Poster 3: So this looks like I’ll be prosecuted for stating facts?

One group of posters: 😁

Another group of posters: 😒

Ad nauseum, rinse and repeat at least a couple of hundred more times, and here we are.

Kermit.de.frog

The government don't have the stomach for this bill anymore. I think this and other issues means McEntee might be out tomorrow. I don't see how she could credibly stay on if the government bin this.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994792#Comment_121994792

Your questions are irrelevant. Ireland isnt Scotland. This is a different law. People have gone in this discussion from claiming misgendering will be illegal to claiming misgendering might be illegal because when challenged on these claims they couldn't produce anything. This is all irrelevant Grandstanding that is nothing to do with the Irish law.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995159#Comment_121995159

Indeed. And when challenged on their false claims they can't answer and start grandstanding irrelevant law from Scotland that is not the Irish law

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995173#Comment_121995173

Regardless of whatever Goverment is in or out or shakes it all about or doesn’t have the stomach for it, the legislation is going through in order to bring all EU member states into line with regard to tackling hate crime across Europe. It’s really no more complicated than that.