Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122054721#Comment_122054721

Pray tell what far left scum is burning buildings and calling for murder of immigrants ?

buried

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122054743#Comment_122054743

Your not very good at paying attention are you? The far left scum are at the heart of the very establishment you cheerlead on a daily basis. Only last week you had a Fine Gael MEP wanting to "call out" people who in a sovereign Republic want to address themselves as 'sovereign'. Both Deputies Martin from the greens and Fianna Fail have also stated similar far left extremism and they are both in the employ of the Sovereign people of this Republic. Now, if they all have a hate problem with sovereign people within a sovereign Republic, then they better get a greasy bureaucratic job somewhere else like the USSR or China where their precious Party was the sovereign entity instead of the people, because that's what this nation is, the people here on this nation ARE sovereign, and always will be.

US3

Has anyone called for the murder of migrants?

Not one person has been charged with any of the fires so not sure how you know the polictal leaning of anyone who might have started them.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122054968#Comment_122054968

Lol. Fine Gael and Fianna Fail are not left wing, and I'd hardly describe a political party as 'scum '

Oh, and I'm no government cheerleader, far from it😂

None of what you day is incitement to Hatred anyway

Shoog

“At seven o’clock, be in town. Everybody bally [balaclava] up, towel up, and any f---ing gypo, foreigner, anyone, just kill them. Just f---ing kill them. Let’s get this on the f---ing news,” a Dublin man said in a voice message to an anti-immigration WhatsApp group titled “Enough is enough”.

Posted on WhatsApp just before the Dublin riots. That is what hate speech looks like and what this law is designed to deal with.

buried

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122055006#Comment_122055006

You said nothing about Incitement to hatred, you wanted examples of far left extremism and I gave it to ya. And it is far left extremism, broadcast from 3 high ranking establishment members as if it was the word of Moses from Mount Sinai. As I've said, if they have a problem with the sovereign people of this nation, what the f**k are they even doing staying in their positions? They should go off to the USSR or the Khmer Rouge where that sort of braindead far left extremist talk did those places the world of wonder.

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122055050#Comment_122055050

And one got charged with setting fire to a Luas.

https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/man-61-charged-over-arson-attack-on-luas-is-activist-with-far-right-national-party/a114954360.html

Imagine being 61 and so brainwashed you end up allegedly doing something like this?

nachouser

It's kinda funny that we had so many posters going on about low-level trolling and, yet, they are all on here. I'm not a racist / I'm not anti-trans / I'm not anti-whatever, but…

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122055058#Comment_122055058

Not in anyway far left extremism. it's a non argument🙄

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122055058#Comment_122055058

You could have provided a link by way of giving some context for your examples, but after questioning the first example of any kind of a far-left element within FG (because hell if that doesn’t raise a skeptical eyebrow 😂), and it turning out to be not what you suggested, I figured I couldn’t be bothered with the other two you claim made similar claims.

Maria Walsh, an FG MEP for the Midlands North-West constituency, was commenting on the opposition’s rhetoric about the EU Pact on Migration and Asylum:

Ms Walsh told BreakingNews.ie: "Sadly, we have people in opposition, particularly Sinn Féin's messaging about the Pact, they were flip-flopping over Eurodac and other elements of the Pact they previously voted for.

"Using words like 'sovereignty' and 'we must protect our borders', that language was used in Brexit. It's right out of the Brexit playbook, right out of the Trump playbook. I didn't think as a country we would get to this point, but we're here.

"We need to call it out and be practical and rational to the fact we cannot afford to follow the lines of Brexit or, in fact, where the opposition want us to go."

She goes on to say:

A small minority of ant-immigrant campaigners have been staging protests, and vandalising buildings earmarked for asylum seekers, in recent times.

"Extremists live on the left and the right, and you see it in their voting patterns where they meet, we see it from certain Irish MEPs here. That doesn't mean we can continue to give them space because they're causing damage."

She added: "Minority groups are too often used as a political Whac-A-Mole. I'm an LGBTI individual. I've been in the Parliament long enough to know that when certain individuals are about to speak about equality, that they do not recognise, respect or understand where I come from as a pro-LGBTI individual from Ireland. I have to work with them, I have to try to figure out a way, so they aren't stopping funding, creating issues, or inciting hate for fellow LGBTI individuals.


The rest of it is just the standard stuff about her work at both local community and EU level, which is fair enough given the Local and European elections are on the horizon:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mep-labels-sinn-fein-comments-on-migration-pact-out-of-trump-playbook-1615703.html

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/local-and-european-elections-to-be-held-on-friday-june-7-1601235.html

You probably were paying attention, to whatever source you get your news from, but I’d be fairly certain they left out the more salient details in order to portray the narrative you’re welded to like a barnacle. The criticism wasn’t of people who value Ireland’s sovereignty; the criticism was squarely aimed at the type of nationalist goons who are determined to destroy this country and all that has been achieved in the last 50 years by virtue of our membership of the EU. The problem they have with the people they refer to, is the very reason they wish to remain in the positions they’re in, in order to restrict the capacity of extremists responsible for attempting to stir up hatred and violence against other groups in Irish and European society on the basis of characteristics which are protected in Irish and European law.

So far they’ve managed to do a good job, it’s why extremists are still regarded as such, as opposed to their ideas that they represent mainstream Irish or European society. Extremists wouldn’t know what to do with themselves if they became the thing which they rally against - “The Establishment”. I’m fairly certain they aren’t even aware of the meaning of the term, it’s a convenient way of describing their perceived oppression by whomever the fcuk they wish to blame at as being responsible for their actions. The idea of sovereignty means nothing to them, as they have no legitimate authority over anyone.

buried

Aww did I not get my news source from the state sanctioned media outlet no? Off to the gulag for me so.

Spare me your wall of noise. Walsh SAID it, it's right there in your link, so deal with it. Just because she went onto say something else you find counters what she said in the first place means nothing. Speaking out of both sides of her mouth, thats another way to describe what you see.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122055677#Comment_122055677

What's wrong with a politician saying we should call out rhetoric? The average person referring to themselves as the "sovereign people" are the same kinds of people harassing library staff, turning up in balaclavas outside of a politicians house and referring to themselves as citizen journalists... They're not special patriots or anything, they're twats.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122054689#Comment_122054689

It's not really exaggerated though. It would be easy to list dozens and dozens of incidents of far right violence, murder, death threats in Ireland. The Gardai came out this week and said they struggle with it because they are often subject as individuals to harassment and threats.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122054974#Comment_122054974

Yes

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/24/how-far-right-hooligans-used-whatsapp-organise-dublin-riots/

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122055677#Comment_122055677

Maria Walsh? A communist????

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122055050#Comment_122055050

Was that even genuine? I remember seeing several young men of obviously immigrant origin on a number of videos of the looting that night. I don’t remember any of them being killed, do you?

And WTF does “towel up” mean anyway?

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122056213#Comment_122056213

This is the sort of rhetoric that would be common on private discussion groups organising the sort of arson attacks we are seeing.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122056262#Comment_122056262

Arson and violence are already crimes, so the existence of a tiny number of people conducting these crimes is not relevant to the hate speech legislation. Similarly, we could point to the existence of foreign nationals committing crimes in this country, and that wouldn't be a good basis for passing this hate speech legislation, either.

Hate exists on both sides of the political spectrum; from the far-left and the far-right. Both sides know which groups of people they hate, and they are very vocal about that hatred.

This idea that hatred resides only with the far-right is absurd.

If either side incite violence against anyone for any reason, that should most certainly be a crime.

But if either side express hatred for the other side, that in itself should not be a crime — and isn't a crime under this legislation. But that logic should extend to protected characteristics under precisely the same principle.

Furthermore, in the real world, this legislation isn't really about the cases brought forward to represent it. Instead, when the legislation passes, certain groups in society will take advantage of the legislation to settle a score against someone they don't like, or someone who said something that caused personal offense (or someone feigning that offense). It will be weaponized as a chilling effect.

All this talk about the far-right and violence is a red herring to distract away from the true intention of how they want this legislation to work in the real world.

AllForIt

I find it quite painful reading quotas from Maria Walsh. She's never had an original political thought in her life. Moaning about rhetoric and playbooks is anything but original. What does she mean by she's 'an LGBTQI person'. What kind of oddball talks like that, does she have some special powers or something.

She's inspired me in one way though and that is to vote in the European elections for the first time in my life - to vote for anyone but her.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122056400#Comment_122056400

I never said that dislike or even hatred only resides on one side, but that is a red herring because this legislation is specifically aimed at people who use hate speech to cause actual harm and violence towards prescribed groups. I can hate fascists all I like but that is not a crime until I incite people to go out and beat up fascists. This is such basic stuff I cannot understand why seemingly intelligent people cannot grasp it

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122056446#Comment_122056446

I already said that I support incitement to violence legislation.

My argument above was purely and solely focussed on the hate speech part.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122056458#Comment_122056458

Its incitement to hatred. And you are still.confused, your belief that people can't hate others is totally wide off the mark. And this

'certain groups in society will take advantage of the legislation to settle a score against someone they don't like, or someone who said something that caused personal offense (or someone feigning that offense). It will be weaponized as a chilling effect.'

They can't 'take advantage' of the legislation, because a.crime is only committed if someone is guilty of incitement to hatred.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122056563#Comment_122056563

They can take advantage of it.

Look at the Scottish equivalent of this law, and how JK Rowling was immediately reported to the police over her tweets (not just her either, but many others too). The only positive I took from that embarrassing event is how much it wound up the usual suspects on social media. Their apoplexy was comedy gold.

If it's happening in the UK, it can happen here, and though some are ok with that, I — and I'd like to think most others — are most certainly not.

It's not enough to say that, "Well look, she wasn't arrested so what's the big deal…".

The "big deal" is that the law could be weaponized to this end to begin with. It's a predictable consequence of people who feel that their hurt emotions warrant another person being arrested or worse, that they can feign sincerity with how much personal offense they claim to have endured simply to have police look into the matter.

Put another way, the process is the punishment — not the outcome of a successful arrest.

BillyHasMates

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122056563#Comment_122056563

That whatsapp message posted above? You think it's incitement to hatred rather than violence? The entire message involves inciting the recipient to take action that includes killing. It's as clear cut a message about inciting violence as I've seen. I don't think there are many people against the incitement to violence bit, so messages like this one would easily be categorised as an offence.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122056702#Comment_122056702

And here we are back tto the same old arguments that we had 2 weeks ago.

Everybody can make any sort of allegation they want against anybody they want under any existing legislation. this has been gone over and over.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122056765#Comment_122056765

I never made any post about any text messages.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122056933#Comment_122056933

No, this new legislation incentivizes people to report cases to the police because perceived "hate" is subjective — how a person feels is the motivating factor.

People didn't report JK Rowling, for example, before the Scottish legislation passed. But they sure as hell did, in vast numbers, when the legislation was passed. So no, your claim that people will report "under any existing legislation" is nonsense.

The law encourages people to report non-existent crimes. It wastes police time.

It lets the perpetually offended have a legal toy to play with.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122057081#Comment_122057081

You still don't understand.

People can report anybody they want now, for any crime, under any legislation.

This is absolutely no different. We have gone through all this only a few pages back, if you care to scroll back and save us all time

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122057105#Comment_122057105

Completely evades the point I actually did make, again.

BillyHasMates

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122056936#Comment_122056936

Then your post wasn't clear. You quoted a poster who was engaging with another poster in a discussion that originated about this whatsapp message.