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Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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    #2792
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448161#Comment_121448161

    It literally is. You are continuously linking to far rights sources spreading disinformation.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2793
    eightieschewbaccy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448245#Comment_121448245

    Given the fact she starts going down this line of discussion, I'm happy to stand by that cause this statement basically amounts to conspiracy theories. The Biden administration flag content, Trump Administration did the same. They are not required to remove it.


    “…We know that’s happening under the Biden Administration, where they got media companies like Facebook and Twitter to deplatform content on their sites which they didn’t like. But since it comes from a private platform, it doesn’t violate the First Amendment at first glance."


    It's also pretty telling that a committee on weaponising the federal government hasn't looked at Hungary or Russia. 🤣



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    #2794
    combat14
    Registered Users Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭combat14


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448257#Comment_121448257

    this is exactly why these vague hate laws are so dangerous .. its like the french revolution all over again anyone who looks crooked at you is labelled whatever the current in vogue term is



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    #2795
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448501#Comment_121448501

    Your statements about the whole world talking about Irelands law are untrue

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2796
    Jack Daw
    Registered Users Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448569#Comment_121448569

    I've seen it on Australian, Canadian, British and American news channels in the last 10 days.

    So basically the rest of the English speaking world is talking about it.



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    #2797
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448609#Comment_121448609

    I have no doubt a lot of the Ultra Conservative media internationally are mentioning it. There is a world outside that echo chamber.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2798
    freebritney
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭freebritney


    Anyone I disagree with or holds views different to my own is far right.



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    #2799
    Jack Daw
    Registered Users Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    I wonder could Richard Boyd Barrett be charged for hate speech considering his recent ranting and raving about bringing down Israel or is that ok because it's the right kind of hate speech.

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1731077554449060002


    BTW I happen to think he should able to spout whatever nonsense he wants he looks and sounds like a deranged lunatic but the video of him above is surely something that would fall under this legislation.



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    #2800
    freebritney
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭freebritney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448997#Comment_121448997

    The Israeli embassy would be all over that with complaints to Gardaí. While supporters of the Bill keep pointing out that Judges will decide what's a hate crime or not, most people don't fancy the thought's of the guards knocking on your door because you weren't in favour of a man using the same dressing room as your daughter. A few high profile cases at the start against people who voice their concern about migrants being dumped in their village or such will have the desired effect to let people know to keep quiet. A conviction won't even be needed, the fear of a trial in the CCJ will be enough.



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    #2801
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448997#Comment_121448997


    It’s nothing to do with being ‘the right kind of hate speech’ or anything else, it’s simply that individuals right to freedom of expression is still a thing, and current legislation, and proposed changes in legislation include protections for freedom of expression - which has its limits too btw, but simply being regarded as offensive doesn’t constitute a criminal offence.



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    #2802
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449124#Comment_121449124

    Exactly

    The bill allows for reasonable and genuine political discourse

    In any proceedings for an offence under this section, it shall be a defence to prove that the material concerned or, insofar as appropriate, the behaviour concerned consisted solely of—

    (a) a reasonable and genuine contribution to literary, artistic, political, scientific, religious or academic discourse,

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2803
    Jack Daw
    Registered Users Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449701#Comment_121449701


    Yes, but someone could argue that putting forward an argument that a state should be brought down is not reasonable political discourse, particularly in the ranting a raving manner he did it.

    Again what is and what is not reasonable political discourse is completely subjective.



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    #2804
    Jack Daw
    Registered Users Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449124#Comment_121449124

    It may not result in a criminal offence but it may result in a complaint being made and having to be taken seriously by the guards and potentially an investigation.

    The point of this legislation is not to convict people of hate speech it is to have a chilling effect on people so that they just don't bother saying anything controversial.

    The threat of being investigated and potentially convicted is enough to shut people up because most people just want a simple hassle free life, that is what the government want that is what all entities who loved censorship of speech in the past wanted to do, they didn't even have to go anywhere close to a conviction.

    Post edited by Jack Daw on


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    #2805
    Augme
    Registered Users Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448609#Comment_121448609


    And what exactly did the Candadians and British say about our proposed laws compared to their current laws?



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    #2806
    combat14
    Registered Users Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭combat14


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450049#Comment_121450049

    General comment and concern out there appears to be that our new legislation is a tool to stop free speech has vague wording and is draconian in nature (possibly the most draconian in the world), impossible to properly implement and police and is ripe for widespread abuse by any head banger out there with a grudge ..basically a disaster waiting to happen ..

    in addition, by the looks of it gives many posters on here the perfect tool to label anyone who wishes to have constructive intelligent discourse a lunatic far right fanatic 🤣

    a wonderful addition to any political party's tool kit .. wait till sinn fein or some other crowd get in and see how the legislation will be further abused



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    #2807
    Augme
    Registered Users Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450136#Comment_121450136


    I'm specifically referring to a comparison to the laws in those respective countries though, not just a general overview of Irish laws from some random Canadian or British person.



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    #2808
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449895#Comment_121449895

    Exactly. The courts and juries are there to judge. Everything in legislation is subjective. Literally everything.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2809
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450136#Comment_121450136

    Not really no. General comment on the bill is mixed with some supporting it and others not. You appear to be only reading an echo chamber of certain views of the bill.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2810
    RobbingBandit
    Registered Users Posts: 18,126 ✭✭✭✭RobbingBandit


    Things like this depending on severity could end up as a special criminal court type situation no jury only judges it is a very precarious way to deal with slander and libel and will be significantly open to abuse regardless of how or where it is judged we are opening a very very wide door one which can not be closed and gods help anyone that gets criminalised for a ridiculous mistiminer or dragged over coals because someone just thinks this law is now here for entertainment purposes.



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    #2811
    Jack Daw
    Registered Users Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450154#Comment_121450154

    Thank You for proving my point.You just want people hauled up before the courts for no reason and waste their time and cause them undue hassle just because they said something. Shows you how ridiculous the people are who are in favour of this legislation.

    People can define fairly accurately define what robbery, murder, arson are, nobody can properly define "hate" , what constitutes hate differs from person to person .

    Alot of people would argue Richard Boyd- Barrett should be charged with hate speech for what he said in the video above but an awful lot of people would disagree with that.

    If there was a video or someone deliberately burning down a building I think everyone would agree they should be charged with arson.



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    #2812
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450193#Comment_121450193

    Now you are making things up about me.

    I never called for everyone to be hauled before the courts and I don't support a situation of all hate speech going before the courts at all. I support the government position where the most serious incitements to hatred and violence goes to court.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2813
    combat14
    Registered Users Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭combat14


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450154#Comment_121450154

    and thats why introducing new deliberately vague impossible to accurately police "subjective" legislation is fraught with danger

    we already have plenty of law to deal with equality, harassment etc. this new as you put it subjective law is only being put in place to suit leo varadaker next thing no one will be able to say dicky boo about how poorly the government are handling housing, health, police, education, immigration, social welfare, pensions, whatever topic without comment being deemed as subjective "hate" and jail being threatened .. before we know it free speech here will be eliminated all because we rushed through even more poorly thought out subjective legislation...



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    #2814
    RabbleRouser2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,312 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    I would be thoroughly opposed to the introduction of these laws, and I'm far from a hateful bigot or a far right extremist.

    But what I question about these laws is the invasion of privacy they carry with them. They remind me of the Patriot Act that was introduced in the US in the wake of 9/11, and how invasive it was. That Green party individual saying 'language should be censored'... no. I won't quote Voltaire, as others have quoted it before me. But it applies.

    I also question how these laws are being pushed forward. In years gone by, we've heard the term 'Nazi' bandied about without a care in the word. And when everyone is a Nazi, nobody is. And thus it allows REAL Nazi's to pass by, unseen. Now the term 'far right' has become the new 'buzzword' because 'Nazi' has lost it's resonance. It's lost it's power, due to overuse.

    Now people who are angry with the government for the mess they've made of things are labelled 'far right', even if their anger is at Govt policies that have left the vulnerable Irish citizens out in the cold, and not people immigrating to this country to escape a dangerous situation. The anger is at the Govt., yet if you listen to the media or Govt spokespeople, those people are 'far right', and hate anyone not Irish. (And whilst those people exist, they are far from the majority). It's twisting the truth to suit an agenda.

    Malcolm X said it best, 'If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people doing the oppressing'. McEntee is seeing her popularity dying on the vine, so these 'laws' are a way to try and extend her political career. Try and curry favour with the media. But even when she was questioned about this legislation, by Sarah McIntyre, she couldn't define 'hate speech'. So if she's clueless about them, it tells you all you need to know. It'll be blanket terminology that will allow officials to invade the average joe's civil rights and right to privacy.



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    #2815
    combat14
    Registered Users Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭combat14


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450311#Comment_121450311

    put like that this new law is absolutely chilling and terrifying for any proper thinking person in this country



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    #2816
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450180#Comment_121450180

    What evidence do you have to suggest that the SCC would deal with such charges.

    Fyi, slander and libel don't exist anymore, and defamation, which replaced them, are civil law, not criminal.



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    #2817
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450251#Comment_121450251

    Opinions against government are not anything to do with this legislation, why don't you read it?



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    #2818
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450311#Comment_121450311

    So people who are angry at government show it by burning tents belonging to immigrants? Protesting outside DP centres? Boarding buses and demanding information from immigrants?

    Yeah, makes perfect sense.



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    #2819
    lmimmfn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450344#Comment_121450344

    Exactly and DEI/EGS investment should hopefully dry up in the next year putting an end to this nonsense.



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    #2820
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450251#Comment_121450251

    Well this is absolute and utter nonsense. Proposals for changes to the law have been talked about for many many years. It wasn't Leo Varadkar the one that started those discussions. You are misquoting me about the the subjectivity of the law. I said every law is subjective.

    Claiming that genuine political debate won't be able to happen once this passes is just hysteria. Nothing else.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2821
    combat14
    Registered Users Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭combat14


    edited - deleted



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