VAR

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120388#Comment_120120388

The answer imo is that the English officials by and large are incompetent, but of course the FA would never countenance such a factor.

NIMAN

Can we honestly say VAR has improved football?

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120995#Comment_120120995

Id say its about the same tbh. Its removed the risk of errors by replacing it with the risk of different kinds of errors.

Up to late December, VAR had made 48 interventions, 42 correct and 6 incorrect. So around 85% of the decisions were the right ones. Pre VAR, would ref's / linesmen have had an 85% success rate in their major in game calls? I dont know, but based on absolutely nothing Id say probably not. Reality is, errors do and will continue to happen. United benefited at the weekend from it but were punished a couple of weeks ago. Swings and roundabouts and a storm in a United branded teacup.

Ashbourne hoop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120995#Comment_120120995

No of course not. It's been an absolute shambles. Wrong decisions are still being made, they are just taking longer to get the decision wrong. I'd get rid to be honest.

adaminho

https://twitter.com/martynziegler/status/1615735800452337669?t=LsS_J3_wFDl2pXS4d92VDQ&s=19

This will be interesting to see how this works. Will it be like the Rugby where you can hear both sides of the conversation?

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125221#Comment_120125221

Only if you're watching on TV. If you're at a rugby match you can't hear the referee. This sounds more like the NFL where the referee turns on his mic and everyone can hear the decision and the reason for it.

adaminho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125316#Comment_120125316

I think for the 6 nations you can get an earpiece to listen in? Even so it's a step in the right direction. An example from the A league a few years ago.

https://youtu.be/LICssgTjI-s

https://youtu.be/UR9wwqjbO1I

For some reason I can't remove the second video but it's still a good example.

dfx-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121403#Comment_120121403

It's not just about errors on decisions made, but also the late offside flags, the time lost making the decisions, the law change on handball because it can't decipher intent either so anything 'could' be handball now.

And then there's decision making via slow motion and how going to the monitor means changing the decision 99.9% of the time.

And the only VAR at PL grounds thing in the cup.

All caused by or changed to suit VAR introduction.

thebaz

VAR having another nightmare - wish it would go - know it won't hppen

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231515#Comment_120231515

How did VAR have a nightmare exactly?

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231527#Comment_120231527

By “forgetting” to drawing the lines for a blatant offside goal??

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231540#Comment_120231540

That was a professional top level referee, rather than a piece of technology surely?

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231527#Comment_120231527

arsenal , chelsea , brighton

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231601#Comment_120231601

Those were poor decisions from the same referees who’d be refereeing the games even without video technology, right?

If these guys can’t make good decisions even with the ability to watch it back on replay, surely it’s the referees we need to talk about first, before we move onto the technology itself (which I would get rid of because it diminishes my enjoyment of the game experience)?

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231615#Comment_120231615

yes the refeees are weak, but think VAR has not added value to the game since its introduction, it was meant to improve things but its taken something away from the game -

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231660#Comment_120231660

So basically, the logic here seems to be, the referees were bad before VAR, they’re still bad after VAR, so let’s place our focus onto VAR. How does that make any sense? These kinds of conversations only give a free pass for referring standards to continue to be bad.

willowthewisp

First couple of VAR seasons the bar was so low that VAR was looking to do anything to disallow a goal. E.g. the Andy Robertson penalty against Brighton when there wasn’t even a hint of an appeal.

Now they seem to be actually ignoring clear issues (yesterday’s handball being blatant).

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231720#Comment_120231720

Exactly. The problem is primarily with those setting refereeing standards (even moreso than the referees themselves), and it needs to be the first area to be held accountable.

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231673#Comment_120231673

its my preference that I preffered the game without VAR - referees will always continue to be suspect , ther human -

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231795#Comment_120231795

So actually, your complaints have nothing really at all to do with the quality of decision making then? You just don’t like VAR. Why not just say that?

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231673#Comment_120231673

Your problem is that you have the question backwards.

The game needs referees, it does not necessarily need VAR.

So if VAR does not improve those same referees then why exactly is it there? Why suffer the disadvantages of VAR if it doesn't actually solve the problem it was supposedly brought in to solve?

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231940#Comment_120231940

That definitely is not the question backwards. If a human referee does not operate the technology correctly, and do something as basic as drawing lines, it’s not a failure of technology, it’s 100% a human failure.

If you make a typo on a document at work, I would assume the conclusion to be reached is not that the technology isn’t working, and that you need to go back to pen and paper.

VAR is not and never was intended to make decisions. It’s literally just there to provide more information to referees when making decisions.

bucketybuck

VAR is not and never was intended to make decisions. It’s literally just there to provide more information to referees when making decisions.

And it hasn't worked. It was never going to work, because subjective remains subjective.

Honestly you and others have completely lost sight of what the original problem was.

The original problem was always referees making mistakes. They introduced VAR and the refs are still making mistakes.

So VAR hasn't solved the problem, which leaves it a white elephant that no longer has a rationale for being there. But instead of acknowledging that, people would rather tinker with VAR than actually go back and look again at the original problem.

Like your posts here today saying that it is the referees fault for not using VAR properly, as if referees exist to serve VAR rather than the other way around. Completely backwards.

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120232042#Comment_120232042

This is a gigantic logic chasm. How is a video replay system supposed to serve referees in any other way, than allowing them to watch an incident back again to have more information when making a decision?

What else do you want it to do? Or are you upset that it never did something that it was never intended to do in the first place?

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120232058#Comment_120232058

I don't want it to do anything, I want people like you to step back and actually consider why it is there at all.

I know that won't happen unfortunately. In 10 years time people will still be sitting complaining about the referees decisions. Just as they were 10 years ago. It will never occur to them that VAR didn't actually change anything fundamental.

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120232082#Comment_120232082

It’s literally there to do the only thing it can do. To allow the referee watch incidents again. What else can it do? What else could anyone really expect it to do? Who was arguing it would do something else?

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120232147#Comment_120232147

You are literally proving my point and you can't even see it. Hopefully others can.

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120232178#Comment_120232178

Go on. Explain it for the less enlightened others who can’t find the logic in your point. Explain what reasonable people were expecting VAR was going to do, that it hasn’t done.

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231820#Comment_120231820

Thats what I **** said

Ashbourne hoop

VAR has been a disaster, surely at this stage there can't be anyone who wants it retained. It's completely ruined celebrating goals. Now you have to wait on VAR to show red or green lines (which SKY have added a bit of "theatre" to !!!) to know if the goal will count. Said it before, but mistakes are still being made, it's just taking longer to get there. VAR has added nothing to the game. Just let refs ref and accept that they make mistakes.

McFly85

VAR as a concept is excellent. It’s most basic purpose is to provide the refereeing team with as much information as possible to make a correct call. When it works it works very well.

At major tournaments VAR has largely been a success. So VAR itself isn’t the problem.

The problem is the quality of English referees and their ham-fisted implementation. From clear and obvious to let it flow, all nonsense rules that only have the effect of a ref allowing a terrible call.

And it feels worse because they don’t learn from it. We heard at the start of this season that there would be detailed VAR reports, then that was out the window after some dreadful decisions they didn’t want to explain. And because you never see or hear from VAR you have no idea if they’re even doing their job.

It’s crazy that officiating can be so poor that some people are convinced that it’s referees having more information that’s the problem, not the referees themselves.

ebbsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234818#Comment_120234818

I have to agree with this.

They do it better in Germany for example.

greenspurs

VAr is being used elsewhere , and its not making as many terrible decisions.

The reasons - This rubbish about "clear and obvious" error, and it cant decide on sending off (??? do they/dont they , i dont know anymore!!!)

It should be simple.

The VAR team watch the game - if the ref makes ANY mistake - then VAR tell him to go watch the monitor as they suspect he may have misread an incident.

ANY mistake - ANY offside - ANY dive in the box to win a peno - ANY yellow -> red or red-> yellow....

Have the balls to instruct the ref if he has made a mistake and allow them to have the chance to change their mind on a decision.

The way it is now is a farce.

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234818#Comment_120234818

Agree with everything you’ve said there, except for it being excellent as a concept. Even if executed to perfection, I could never imagine enjoying it as a matchgoing fan.

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234818#Comment_120234818

Exactly. If you give incompetent people tools to make them less incompetent without tackling the root cause (said incompetence) you can't expect the technology to assist anyone in any capacity. The FA, PL and PGMOL together refuse to tackle the fact that the vast, vast majority of refs are not good enough. Whether it's poor training or something else they won't accept it and until that is tackled correctly the mistakes will continue.

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120235411#Comment_120235411

I don’t think it’s the referees individually, so much as it is the refereeing standards. Not fully sure how you can ask a referee to be someone who enforces the rules of the game, while also asking them to act as composers of the art of a football game.

One minute they’re being told to give loads of penalties for nonsense handballs, and disallow goals if the ball brushed loosely against someone’s arm, and the next they’re being told to give basically nothing. Not hard to see how either one results in a lesser quality of decision making.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120235396#Comment_120235396

Maybe it’s because I’m used to seeing it work well at Rugby games, but I see no reason why it doesn’t translate over to football.

If you’re going to be reviewing a decision, the audience needs to be included in what’s happening. Show what the ref is reviewing on the big screen. Show VAR looking at it in their studio(or better again remove the ability for VAR to make any on field calls and relegate them to assistants that leave all decisions to the referee).If done correctly it can add to the drama of the day.

But I genuinely think this will never happen because they are terrified that they make a bad call or obvious error that everyone can see, and will cling on to whatever deniability they can. And while they have this mindset VAR will never be a success in England.

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120235573#Comment_120235573

I think you’re just viewing it from a different perspective. I’m not saying they can’t do a good/better job of it, they absolutely can. So many improvements that can be made to it (which im very much in favour of since I don’t think it is going anywhere).

But I can’t see it ever enhancing my own enjoyment of the game. Some people might enjoy the drama and suspense of watching back a decision and the process, not knowing if it’s going to be given or not. But not me, I’d much rather have that immediate moment of elation where the only thing I have to look out for is a linesman’s flag, before I go apesh*t celebrating with my fellow fans. I’ve always felt you need to reign it in a little with VAR.

ArmaniJeanss

One issue that could be looked at is whether they continue to have the elite panel referees also doing VAR. As the on-field and VAR skill sets are clearly very different.

At the moment everyone on the referees panel also seems to spend some time in the VAR room. But people who failed to make that referees panel because they came up short in some way (perhaps not great at keeping the game flowing or maintaining control) may be superior with the technology and have a much better thought process for what needs to be looked and in what order. VAR specialists if you like.

To an extent it's akin to how we have specialist linesmen/assistant referees who don't ever get to referee at the top level. It's accepted as being a different skill.

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120236255#Comment_120236255

Yeah, there’s also the argument whether members of the same boys club are the right ones to declare their mates as getting big decisions wrong.

Ashbourne hoop

It's time to admit the experiment hasn't worked and go back to letting refs ref. It has added nothing to the game at all.

McFly85

Disagree.

It works most of the time - according to the guardian last season VAR overturned 116 on field decisions.

When it doesn’t work though it’s a shítshow. Focus should be on improvement and timely releases of the audio and reviews.

Ashbourne hoop

It's still making mistakes though, it's just taking longer to get there. I'm not a fan as it disrupts the flow of the game, I don't think the "success rate" has been good enough to endure that.

A Dub in Glasgo

The furore over the Diaz goal is unreal, people talking about replaying the game are nuts.

Remember this - the on-field decision was disallow therefore not having VAR would not have changed the outcome. In fact, anybody who watched football pre-VAR will know that there were more mistakes pre than post VAR

The communications protocol is amateurish though

jacool

The on field decision was offside. I don't blame the linesman at all for his call. He is supposed to know exactly when the ball left Salah's boot and be in line with the last defender at that precise second.

In the days when we had black and white blurry replays that was fine, but now Sky have a million ways to show you in 5 seconds if the calls are correct or not. That is why VAR is there, to try and minimise the errors. With the billions swilling around in football we could potentially arrive someday at a relegated club suing for lost earnings based on lost points due to such "errors".

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193811#Comment_121193811

Referees worked most of the time as well, they always got the vast, vast majority of decisions correct.

VAR always was and remains a complete white elephant.

McFly85

Correct decisions have increased, so it does actually work.

The mistakes are really highlighted now because nobody can understand how they’ve gotten a decision wrong with the information available to them. But with some clarity from the refs and the audio that will go a long way to resolving that.

Anyway, the cats out of the bag. Get rid of it and you’ll have every pundit, fan, manager, player and loads of fans complaining the first time a referee gets a decision wrong - we had a system that would have allowed the referee to correct his mistake(that had corrected hundreds of refereeing mistakes when it was in use), yet we decided to get rid of it because of a few big mistakes.

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194100#Comment_121194100

Not a big fan of VAR, but don’t agree with this. The fact that referees are still really bad, even with video footage to rewatch games with, says it all about how bad the officiating standards are.

They were never obliged to be bad with VAR. That was the implementation of VAR. There were always going to be lots of things that many of us wouldn’t like about VAR, but terrible decision making shouldn’t have been one of them.

jacool

Its Liverpool again, and VAR, or maybe just me, but was there not a Liverpool handball in the lead up to that goal?

On the halfway line, surely there is only one way that the ball got knocked forward, or am I seeing things?

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121199442#Comment_121199442

The Jota one? His hand is in up the air when he jumps alright, but it only touches his head. The first angle it's hard to tell, but with other angles you can see it only hits his head.