VAR

Mitch Connor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575601#Comment_121575601

I think your offside change is horrible. Absolutely horrible.

Massive benefit to the attacker, MASSIVE, and you still don't get rid of tight calls cause maybe only the strikers trailing heel was in line or something.

My counter change - automated offside with a defined margin the player has to be offside by. So if the players are broadly in line, it's onside.

As for the timer, nope on that too for me. I dont want the refs continuing to make the wrong call because of time pressure. I do think, informally, they should understand if you need minutes of analysis it's not clear and obvious.

Mitch Connor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575818#Comment_121575818

Imo you'll just get teams sitting deeper and deeper because the ability to play offside becomes far, far too difficult.

I think benefit of the doubt should go to the attacking side, but I don't think the attacking side should be given such a massive advantage

CSF

Has there been a case where VAR overturned something the ref didn’t give, and it won on appeal? McAllister is the example people reference, but that was given by the ref right?

Its not saying much for Stockley Park if this wins an appeal tbh.

citytillidie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121576060#Comment_121576060

Ref gave the free kick VAR asked him to go have a look for a red card and ref upgraded it to red

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575995#Comment_121575995

The issue as to why VAR takes so long I think is that they’re trying to determine what the correct decision is, rather than checking if there’s any obvious reason that the on-field decision was incorrect.

Even though they have more cameras, there will still be incidents that will be subjective, so they should just be looking for something clear rather than redoing the entire decision. If they do that the decisions should be quicker.

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121576887#Comment_121576887

Yeah, that’s still a VAR overturn though, right? They all basically end that way now.

MICKEYG

Not a VAR issue but I always wondering would trialiing moving the offside line from the halfway to the 18 yards box have any merit.

Would stretch the game and would still protect from "goal hoggers" which I believe is the original purpose of the rule.

IncognitoMan

There's no need to reinvent the wheel with the offside rule - we have a system that is quick and accurate. It is used in the CL and works.

The PL just need to take their heads out of their arses and stop getting incompetent fools to draw lines on a TV still at an angle. What takes them 3 min to work out can be checked in seconds through the CL offside system.

The only part of it I would possibly look at changing is to base it on the feet of the players. The defender's closest foot to his goal is the line for offside if the attacker has a foot over that line he's off. There is no need to look at shoulders or debating at what point on the arm do you stop counting etc..

Make it as clear as possible and then automate it and we have a large part of our free-flowing game back.

Mitch Connor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579650#Comment_121579650

I've read previously the PL will be doing an automated system, but they are going with a different system/provider. Some speil around the one they are going with being better, but they would say that. I think there might also being some issue with the actual footballs - that the Nike balls don't have the required chip in them for the Uefa system, could be very wrong on all of that.

On the foot thing - I have read that they don't want to do that because seeing the foot of a player, and knowing who it belongs to, is very difficult with the technology and they don't want a different offside rule depending on the level of the game. Easier for grass routes/non-league/lower-leage to essentially stick to 'player was further forward' rather than trying to get into a more granular analysis and ruleset.

ollaetta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578596#Comment_121578596

This has reminded me that back in the 1970s FIFA allowed the North American Soccer League to adopt an offside line 35 yards from the goal. All part of efforts to liven up the game for the Yanks like the 4 quarters notion which thankfully never happened, I don't think they ever seriously considered allowing it worldwide but it lasted almost 10 years before it was scrapped.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121586890#Comment_121586890

They've done some mad stuff in the US... the MLS in the 90s used to also have penalty shootouts where the attacker ran from the halfway line with the ball and the keeper would come out to tackle them.

The Davestator

VAR was brought in to fix Clear and Obvious errors. It it is clear and obvious the ref or VAR should need a max of 15 seconds to decide. As someone said above, it ifs taking longer than that, stick with the original decision.

Ottoman_1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590869#Comment_121590869

This is it really, if something takes 2+ minutes to review, then it’s not clear and obvious so move on. I can’t understand why such logic is so hard to comprehend.

My other issue with VAR is the dialogue used, if you heard the released audio from the Lpool Spurs game, it was like a group of mates having a chit chat. The language should be direct and to the point. The ref should be asked to review the potential hand ball, the potential high tackle etc, then shown the clip, maybe 2 and let him make his mind up if he thinks he made a mistake.

He should not be called over to be shown 40 different freeze frames that set a narrative on what the VAR studio think is the correct call. 

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590869#Comment_121590869

This is all well and good, but when they went with that approach and made a dumb mistake through rushing the process in the Liverpool game against Spurs, we didn’t like that approach. Can’t have it both ways really.

For me, the biggest problem with VAR is that it’s made refereeing less consistent. The same decision given a different way, depending on what the referee has given in the first instance. Was watching the Brentford v Wolves cup game the other night and saw a Brentford player cleared for grabbing a Wolves player by the throat. Was near convulsions having watched one of my team’s best players serve a 3 match ban for the same offence……against Brentford.

Ottoman_1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591254#Comment_121591254

As I’ve the pointed out. The reason for the Spurs Liverpool blunder is because of the language used in the studio, they had more than enough time to come to the correct decision, but they were not clear on what they were meant to be looking for. The dialect is not direct and too much chit chat as if they’re looking at it with their mates down the pub. 

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591281#Comment_121591281

The language was poor, but also rushed.

CSF

The Calvert Lewin red has been overturned. Can’t argue with that, but at what point do they have a look at what they’re doing on the pitch and in the booth?

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590965#Comment_121590965

Good point about the mates having a chat. I'd also like to see less of the casual chit chat between refs and players you see more and more of during games. They are there to ref not be friends.

I think they need to iron the VAR process and make it efficient but no way should it be reversed.

It was brought in under massive pressure to stop cheating and really bad, sometimes suspiciously corrupt decisions, in the game.

I'm really happy with and it will work better as time goes on and become faster.

HalloweenJack

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68116985

A very dangerous precedent. This is only going to increase the pressure on officials and every time a team doesn't get a decision, they'll whinge and ask for a replay.

I wouldn't be terribly opposed to replaying matches from the controversial incident onwards but replaying the whole thing is problematic. How are they going to fit it into team's schedules? And what when more and more teams push for replaying games?

EDIT: Link fixed

Xander10

I've watched a few Cup games without VAR. Ann enjoyable experience I've missed

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681225#Comment_121681225

Replaying games that didn’t have to be abandoned is an awful idea IMO. No obvious circumstances coming to mind where I’m in favour of it.

jacool

Jurgen was right all along😜

No wonder he's packing it in!

Seriously though, this is opening a huge can of worms. Not good.

CSF

I reckon the solution to it is to go Yank style and give the managers one referee challenge a game. If the situation gets reversed, they get it back. If it doesn’t, no more VAR for the game for them. Rather than having every single decision microanalysed.

NIMAN

So it's Six Nations time again.

Once again we will get to see how VAR actually works properly. We get to hear the ref discussing events in real time with his assistants, and we know what's going on. And a quick decision is usually made.

Compare and contrast with the epl var decisions. We hear nothing, they take forever and we haven't a baldies what's going on.

McBain11

I honestly can't believe that a lot of football fans have been pedalling the follow the rugby TMO mantra for a long time now. Rugby is absolutely grim to watch regards refereeing. The ref is the star of the show. He is standing there for about 20 minutes a match talking over decision after decision to the TMO, the crowd and the fans watching on tv.

VAR in it's current EPL guise is nothing short of appalling, but the only thing I can think that will make it worse is to leave the likes of David Coote stand in the middle of pitch, with the world watching him chat to all and sundry, and become the star of the show. It has been a sh*tshow in rugby where some of the most recognisable faces in the 2 decades are the top 10 referees. We shouldn't even know who these guys are 99 percent of the time if they are doing their job correctly and the refereeing setup is in any way adequate.

NIMAN

So we aren't already sitting watching the football refs at the centre of everything while they make their decision?

And football refs aren't already well known 'stars' in the football media? Do tnt sports not have an ex ref as one of their pundits/analysis team? Rugby don't even do that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121715258#Comment_121715258

Getting every decision correct 99% of the time. Clock is paused when it needs to be. It's so simple to fix football using the rugby model. Absolute perfection against France last night

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121715980#Comment_121715980

You should check out the boards thread on the match last night, was absolutely full of lads going completely nuts about the reffing/tmo decisions

McBain11

The refereeing, TMO and most importantly the length of time taken in the match to make the decisions with play stopped was nothing short of desperate. A dreadful watch ref/TMO wise in what else was obviously a brilliant watch from an Irish perspective.

I am amazed at how conditioned people are at this stage to the ref/TMO nonsense in rugby. Sadly people are getting conditioned to the VAR nonsense in football now and actually want to go further down that rabbit hole like the rugby has.

McFly85

I think a key difference is you can hear their process and how they decided to come to the decision - and that they have a protocol for how they speak to eacother.

The idea that VAR takes away subjectivity from refereeing decisions is nonsense - different referees will judge have different tolerances on certain incidents - but until you have a record of what they’re saying and how they come to that decision, the assumption is incompetence at best or corruption at worst.

I think that’s one of the biggest hurdles for VAR to overcome - the idea that they should get all decisions correct in a manner that everyone agrees with, and that when it doesn’t work it’s a because VAR is fundamentally flawed, even though the vast majority of times it works fine.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121716074#Comment_121716074

I go to PL games and the odd rugby when back in Ireland and there is nothing worse than standing around wondering wtf is going on. Especially after you score.

At least you know what's happening when at rugby. Some might say there are too many rules in rugby but that's nothing to do with var implementation. It's perfect

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121715980#Comment_121715980

If getting 99% of decisions correct is the metric then VAR should be ditched immediately, because refs were already getting 99% of decisions correct.

All of this horseshit is because of the 1%, those few high profile mistakes that the media jumped on for controversy clicks.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121716429#Comment_121716429

Nothing is ever 100% in some peoples eyes. Refs weren't anywhere near 99% on penos, red cards or offsides leading to a goal. Only goal line technology is 100% and that was even wrong once.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121715258#Comment_121715258

This is a wild opinion to me. VAR in rugby is incredible, significantly adds to the credibility of the sport and the structured process is great from the viewer perspective.

McBain11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121717735#Comment_121717735

I genuinely can't believe how people think individual stoppages of 3/4/5 minutes to make a decision, at numerous different times in one game can add to any sport. As I said I've never been conditioned to think these mind numbing stoppages in rugby staring at referees chatting to the TMO is exciting whatsoever. I actually enjoy watching rugby players play good rugby. That is what the sport of rugby is about, the teams, the players.

There were a few incidents last night that should have been sorted within 30 seconds, the first Willemse shoulder to the head (does anyone know how this wasn't given as a red btw even with a 10 minute bunker review) and the French try that wasn't given around the 65/70 min mark. These took an absolute age to sort out. These lengthy stoppages are rot in rugby, and that is a game that is a lot more stop start than football.

The creep in football started with VAR a few years back. Stoppages everywhere now. If a team is awarded a free kick around 20 yards from the opposition goal, I'd ask you to time how long it now takes to get to the stage where the whistle blows to take that free kick - usually 90 seconds to 2 minutes. That is a lifetime of nothingness in a game of football. These awful stoppages are now becoming engrained in the game, where the referee is constantly at the centre of everything, delaying, chatting to all and sundry, and generally just posturing.

I've been watching football for 30 plus years now, I watch it religiously and always have done. Domestic football here, a huge amount of European leagues on tv, all major tournaments, and I can genuinely say that football is in the worst shape it's ever been - stoppages galore, VAR and referees the stars of the show, and the rule book completely rewritten in recent years to deal with the new age of VAR refereeing and the minutiae around that (this has been a complete and utter shambles regards handballs, offsides, etc.).

I'll finish on this. VAR was originally brought in to deal with the huge incidents in the game. The once in 10 year incidents. The Maradona handball. The Henry handball. Now it's used to check if an attacking players toe is a centimetre offside 40 yards from goal and 10 passes before the ball ends up in the net. Or my personal favourite, where lines are drawn to help in the study of a players anatomical breakdown to decipher where an arm begins and where it ends (I'll give you a clue, the rule book now believes a short sleeve shirt is the anatomical marker for the end of an arm). It is just all absolute nonsense now.

I was in Stade de France the night Ireland got done in extra time in '09 after the Henry handball. I'll never forget it. What a performance from Ireland and we were robbed. Completely robbed. VAR should only ever have been brought in to deal with such incidents. It shouldn't even be noticeable in 99 percent of games if it served a beneficial purpose to the game of football. I'm long past the stage now, where I'd take an Henry type decision going against Ireland once a decade just to see the back of the rot that is VAR and this entire refereeing system these days. That is how poor I believe the entire refereeing setup is these days, and it's getting worse as people want to go even further down the rabbit hole.

LuckyLloyd

UEFA are managing to implement VAR much better than the EPL, imo. The EPL implementation is shambolic, but this is a league that is making no progress bringing City to account for their 100+ breaches of the rules. The game in England is not very well run and the way in which they are using VAR is significantly hurting confidence and credibility in their product.

However the issue is EPL implementation relative to better implementations. The accuracy and confidence of rugby results is better for TMO. NFL benefits hugely from having video review. Each sport would be significantly worse off without video review. The challenge here is to improve VAR in football, particularly when the EPL have introduced a bespoke version and seem intent on adding bespoke interventions to fix their bespoke problems. Just piggyback on what UEFA have done and work with them to iterate over time.

But progress is inevitable and after the Henry handball VAR being introduced was only a matter of time. The genie is not being put back in the bottle so the focus should be on how it can be improved. In that regard, Rugby is a standard to aspire to.

McBain11

Anyone still extolling the virtues of VAR following rugby down the farcical TMO rabbit hole after that comedy at the end of the Scottish match?

5 plus minutes to make a decision. The ref standing around as the star of the show for an absolute age. The TMO can see the ball being grounded, the referee has decided the ball was held up over the try line (so it was over the line), the TMO and ref are about to award a try but then the TMO says he wants to rock n rolla (classic TMO chat) a few more still images of the possible try and says he can't be definitive that it is a try.

Have a read of the boards Scots France match thread or listen to the post match coverage on Virgin media. Everybody says it is a try but you can't blame the ref and TMO for giving the wrong decision on the end. My God. What a complete and utter nonsense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121750812#Comment_121750812

Yes, every single time. Follow rugby to get it right.

As the Scotland captain said. It's up to us to get the win. None of this whinging you see about VAR either like the football boys. Although sometimes they have a point

McBain11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121750834#Comment_121750834

But it clearly got the decision wrong. Absolutely everybody is saying it is the wrong decision.

Whether Scotland lost by 1, won by 50, played awful or played brilliantly is a complete irrelevance. The TMO system was a complete and utter farce regards that decision.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121750878#Comment_121750878

Yes and they get the decisions wrong almost every game every weekend in the PL

McBain11

Your responses are very very odd.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121750909#Comment_121750909

This is fine I suppose.

https://twitter.com/The_Forty_Four/status/1756339624069272002?t=kyrFHgCk7oWvKDxRQVwthQ&s=19

McBain11

As I said, very very odd.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121750974#Comment_121750974

What is? You're the one making some weird point and for some reason only pop in during rugby.