Obligatory shopping centre parking fees.

mondeoman72

Had ad interesting experience yesterday. What is the legal angle to no grace period in car parks?

Have driven into hundreds of car parks over the years and they all have the terms and conditions where if you don't accept the fees, you can immediately exit. Yesterday, I drove into one and it was a plain, nope, you have to pay to leave. It wasn't the cost that bugged me, it was the point.

I drove in, and tried to drive straight out again, but couldn't. Is this legal?

Cheers folks.

Allinall

I'd be fairly sure they have themselves covered.

There are numerous car parks in Dublin that don't have any free period.

Lenar3556

Surely posting the terms at the entrance to the car park (before you enter) would be negate the need for any free exit period?

elperello

OP can you clear up the issue of signage at the entrance?

Was there a barrier? Were you issued a ticket?

mondeoman72

Not sure. Need to go back and look again. It's just any car park I have ever visited, including Jervis just now, says if you don't agree with terms, you can drive out again.

markpb

It’s generally on the T&Cs sign attached to the ticket dispenser so you can see them before you take a ticket. I always assumed you had enough grace period to drive in and straight out (Dundrum TC give you 10-15 minutes grace, for example) but if the others don’t, maybe they just assume you’ll reverse back out?

Claw Hammer

You need to see the terms before you drive in. The contract is made when you see the terms and continue to drive. The liability to fees arises under a contract. If you saw a sign stating what the charges were and drove past it then you are liable. There is no obligation to give you any free time.

google this case

https://www.lawteacher.net/cases/thornton-v-shoe-lane.php

kennethsmyth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807178#Comment_119807178

Its not quite as simple as that - its illegal to reverse back out onto a main road from a side road (which is what the car park entrance would be). I think if you entered and did not agree to terms as they are only at the entrance and cannot reverse they would have to let you go out. If they don't just park in the exit until they do.

Its criminal to hold you and your property but civil to issue you with a bill if they wish to pursue.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119813949#Comment_119813949

It’s illegal to reverse from a minor road to a major road. A car park entrance is not a road. If the car park entrance was at the end of a one-way road and cul de sac, that might be a problem.

Peregrinus

Whether or not illegal, it might be unsafe to reverse out of a car park entrance onto a road. Depending on the setup, it might also be impossible if, by the time you can read the terms and conditions, you're sufficiently far in that another car may have entered behind you.

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119813949#Comment_119813949

Non-payment could be a theft offence under the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001 - not dissimilar to eating in a restaurant and refusing to pay.

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814464#Comment_119814464

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print

12 Reversing

12. (1) Before reversing, a driver shall ensure that to so reverse would not endanger other traffic or pedestrians.

(2) A driver shall not reverse onto a major road from another road.

(3) A driver shall not reverse from a place adjacent to a public road onto a public road save where it is clear to the driver that to so reverse would not endanger other traffic or pedestrians.

Claw Hammer

In general if you don't agree to the conditions when you see them, you should be able to drive straight out. The 10 minutes grace is usually because there is 10 or 15 minutes deducted from the time of entry to allow a person to pay and get into their car and drive to the barrier. If a person was to drive in and leave within this time there is effectively a negative time spent parking and therefore no charge. This depends on the set up in individual car parks and is not universal. In theory, if you don't agree to the conditions when you see them and it is not safe to reverse you should wait at the barrier and explain that you don't agree the terms and want to be facilitated with an exit.

Viscount Aggro

Ive been in a multi-storey car park, tried to leave after 2 hours.

I explained that I had no money. They argued this and that, then let me drive away.

kennethsmyth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819930#Comment_119819930

However, Liffey Valley charges immediately with no grace period, its simply gouging.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119834469#Comment_119834469

there is no obligation on them to have a grace period. You either park and pay or don't park at all.

elperello

I wonder are we overthinking this?

How often would someone drive into a car park and seek to leave immediately without paying anything?

I know I've never done it though sometimes I have been in car parks that don't charge for a short period say 10-15 minutes.

Whenever that happens I am just pleasantly surprised, it's more of an unexpected bonus than a right.

newmember2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119837841#Comment_119837841

Really? So you expect to pay for parking every time you park in the supermarket carpark?

If someone drives into a hitherto free car park and find that a charge has been introduced now to park there, they should be free to exit without parking and not incur a charge.

For the OP, you should have just tailgated someone else as they cleared the barrier when exiting.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119838929#Comment_119838929

No I don't because none of the supermarkets I use charge for parking.

I think you make a fair point regarding a transition phase if paid parking is introduced to a previously free car park.

Tailgating can result in damage to your car or to the barrier.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119838929#Comment_119838929

Really? So you expect to pay for parking every time you park in the supermarket carpark?

If I drive past a sign telling me that I've to pay then I would expect them to charge me! If I don't want to be forced to pay to park my car there then I won't park there: it's a fairly easy concept to grasp!

If someone drives into a hitherto free car park and find that a charge has been introduced now to park there, they should be free to exit without parking and not incur a charge.

The charge wasnt introduced while they were in the shop. They would have been told somehow that charging was in place so it would come as no surprise.

For the OP, you should have just tailgated someone else as they cleared the barrier when exiting.

Pretty stupid suggestion given the obvious dangers!

newmember2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119839107#Comment_119839107

If I drive past a sign telling me that I've to pay then I would expect them to charge me! If I don't want to be forced to pay to park my car there then I won't park there: it's a fairly easy concept to grasp!

So according to you now, you've never missed what's written on any sign you've ever passed. Also, I never suggested parking, I suggested an exit - without parking.

"They would have been told somehow that charging was in place so it would come as no surprise."

Would they indeed? You're some sort of an authority on this are you?

...Ghost...

Liffey Valley eh? I heard something about charging for parking. Used to go there occasionally, but not with their parking fees. Got the iPhone 14pro there last month. Wouldnt have parked there if there was a fee. Cross that place off my map. Ludicrous not to have a short grace period. Pavilions in swords gives you 2 hours free.

newmember2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119839552#Comment_119839552

Yes, they've done the same with The Square now in Tallaght as well, although I found the ticket there had not incurred a charge in the five minutes I was there, so I'm not exactly sure what the grace period is, or if this was only during the initial 'transition' phase. Such a grace period seems like the ideal solution for anyone who unknowingly or unwillingly enters a car park where there is a charge.

I wonder also, has the introduction of a charge for parking had any effect on the numbers of shoppers in any of these places.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119839497#Comment_119839497

I’ve missed signs, but I’m struggling to see why you think it is anyone else’s fault that I missed reading that sign.

A boardsie put up a beauty of a dash cam video some time back showing what happened to the car behind when the driver tailgated him at a barrier. The expression on the drivers face was priceless as the barrier broke and his car got a scraped and dented.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119839497#Comment_119839497

So according to you now, you've never missed what's written on any sign you've ever passed. Also, I never suggested parking, I suggested an exit - without parking.

You said the following which I replied to:

Really? So you expect to pay for parking every time you park in the supermarket carpark?

That doesn't refer to what you are now claiming!

Would they indeed? You're some sort of an authority on this are you?

Some even think I'm an authority on all matters. But I'm not one to brag. However, I'm not foolish enough to drive past quite evident car park barriers and make the assumption that I can leave without paying regardless of duration as I know that assumptions are often wrong!

nompere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119839552#Comment_119839552

There's a 15 minute grace period in Liffy Valley. From their FAQs:

25. If I enter a car park and can’t find a space, will I be charged?

No. There is a 15-minute grace period to allow you to enter the car park and find a space. If you enter and leave the car park within 15 minutes, you will not be charged.

mondeoman72

An interesting discussion, but it happened in The Square, Tallaght. I think its wrong so now just go to Supervalu or Citywest.