NI Dec 22 Assembly Election

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009736#Comment_120009736

I'll take that as a no. Most unionists I know, work with, live among, am related to don't care about the protocol, affording food and energy is their main current concern. Those that do care can't articulate why they want the protocol gone beyond "get rid". I stand by what I said - the people of NI are happy with the protocol (this is well documented) although far right unionist agitators continue to tell them they are not.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009789#Comment_120009789

If unionist agitators are that effective at influencing people then maybe the shinners should hire them to see can they get their people to be unhappy with Northern Ireland and to want a Ui.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009736#Comment_120009736

Could you articulate what the problems are with the Northern Irish Protocol please?

I have yet to fully understand a coherent argument pinpointing exactly the demands arising from specific issues.

For example, is there a product that is currently outlawed, or a customs duty or tax that is preventing a product being transported, or an onerous amount of documentation in importing or exporting between NI and GB, or are there issues with travel?

I genuinely have a keen interest in understanding the hardship being faced by Northern Ireland, roughly half the citizens are Irish after all, and I certainly wouldn’t like to think they had issues that weren’t being addressed by the UK government, in association with the NI Assembly and the Irish government as the nearest trading partner.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120010229#Comment_120010229

I think Ellen Clumsy Twit's point is that they haven't been effective at influencing people - the position they advocate has consistently failed to secure majority acceptance either in elections or in opinion polls.

They've not been particularly successful at influencing governments either — those opposed to a hard land border have succeeded; those opposed to the Protocol have, so far, failed. This is probably down to the Jekyll-and-Hyde characteristics of their protests — they are genuinely opposed to the Protocol and yet they were complicit in its introduction and continue to be complicit in maintaining it due to their firm policy of not making any demands on the UK government to take the steps necessary for the alleviation or removal of the Protocol.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020513#Comment_120020513

If that is directed at the DUP then I couldn’t disagree with much of it. Ellen Clumsy Twit was directing his comments at the unionist community who have been successful in focusing all parties on accepting their is a problem that needs fixed - a long way from ‘suck it up’ position 18 months ago

Peregrinus

The "suck it up" position is, I think, a good starting point, in that it underlines that the Protocol is a UK creation. It's not only the deal the UK agreed to, but it's actually the deal that the UK asked for, and the UK asked for it in order to achieve goals that were the UK's goals.

The merit of starting from this position is that it leads to a recognition that, if the protocol is to be modified or replaced, it's the UK that needs to shift its position. But I'm still not seeing a huge amount of pressure being applied to Westminster by broad unionism, demanding that it makes the shifts it needs to make if it's going to prioritise the maintenance of the union. So far all we get from Westminster is whingeing about the Protocol, most loudly from the very people that brought us the Protocol, coupled with bombastic threats of lawbreaking that are unlikely to be followed through and that, even if followed through, are unlikely to achieve what unionists want. And, as long as unionism gives the impression that that's all it expects from Westminster, that's all it's going to get from Westminster.

Can you point to anyone of stature in the Unionist community who will say out loud that the UK needs to prioritise the Union over hard Brexit? Yet if unionists are too afraid to ask for that, they'll certainly never get it.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120017856#Comment_120017856

Jack, appreciate the question but there is so much wrong with it I don’t know where to start.

i was trying to order lights for under my kitchen units last night and couldn’t get any to deliver to ni. Same with a battery charger I wanted last week (I have got it delivered to a friend in Edinburgh who will be over after Xmas).

so access to goods from the rest of the Uk is a problem

we are constantly told that a border between the two countries on this island cannot be contemplated as the Ra would get upset, but no problem with a border on the Irish Sea separating two parts of our country

we have a parliament making decisions over our economy and rights that we cannot elect people to

we had Uk unilaterally extend grace periods for medicines last year and politicians were saying it was disgraceful and illegal. We have eu announcing the other day that they were unilaterally extending grace period on medicines for 3 years and same politicians laud them.

the gfa has been ripped up by this separation of ni from gb leading to our institutions collapsing, increased tension between the two main communities and future violence inevitable. This could be very hard to switch off when it gets going. The gfa took many many years. Architect david Trimble says it is ripped up by protocol. Even Bertie Ahern said this week that it has damaged the delicate balance of the gfa

here is a tiny example just from this week of what the protocol does. https://www.newsletter.co.uk/business/loyalist-leader-laments-lack-of-firm-stance-from-uk-government-in-face-of-what-was-a-looming-eu-deadline-on-vet-medicines-3961212

just tip of iceberg here. I trust your question was genuine so o am interested how you feel about above issues.

do you live in Ireland? If so how would you feel if Ireland had left the eu and Uk insisted on eu continuing to have jurisdiction over you without representation. Insisted that your country was a risk to the rest of us but they didn’t want a border on the edge of their territory so instead said it had to be around the old Ulster boundary and goods couldn’t move from Dublin to donegal without checks. Also in Cavan we will allow you a grace period on our rules that you Irish cannot use Irish medicines on your Irish dogs.

If your auntie is coming to from Ardee to donegal to visit she will need to get her dog vaccinated for rabies even though there has not been rabies in Ireland fort over 100 years.

if a Monaghan farmer wants to borrow a bull from his Louth neighbour, it will have to go into an expensive 6 week quarantine programme (£1500) before it can return.

I could go on and on.

do you think that would be in keeping with the gfa and would not reignite the old violent conflict? This is serious stuff for our island

There is a whole catalogue of stuff like this which was very short-sighted. This taliking up violence certainly got Ireland what it wanted but it was a dangerous lesson to teach a fragile no then Ireland https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/taoiseach-warns-eu-that-hard-border-would-threaten-return-to-violence-1.3668341

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020633#Comment_120020633

Your delivery problem there is UK retailers not realising that NI is still in the UK; not the protocol. It will still happen if the protocol goes.

Also, items with batteries are very difficult to ship by air due to this and hence are often difficult to buy in to ROI from EU sellers even.

The rest of your items are not protocol related either, they're related to the UK government not doing its job.

So you don't actually have any reasons to get rid, other than you don't like it?

And as for linking to the opinions of an actual, active terrorist representative when complaining about the GFA apparently not being respected!

Seth Brundle

we have a parliament making decisions over our economy and rights that we cannot elect people to

erm, no you don't.

The only parliament making decisions over NI is in Westminster. They have made the decision with unionist support to create a relationship with the EU through the NIP, part of the WA. Given that the majority of people in NI wanted to remain part of the EU, one could make the claim therefore that the majority of people in NI are happy with an ongoing close relationship with the EU.

Now, with HMG's support, NI will follow EU standards, etc. in order to keep another international agreement. The net result of this is that your laws are set by Westminster as before. However, NI must abide by EU standards.

The fact that the people of NI cannot provide input into those standards and rules is purely because the UK government made the decision to leave the EU. This decision was encouraged by the likes of the DUP. You have been shafted by the government in London. You have been shafted by the political party you have claimed to not follow but will vote for. It is not the EU's fault. It is not Dublin's fault. It is not the GFA or anything else that has created this prediucament. It is 100% on the Tories and the DUP - vent your anger to them!

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021344#Comment_120021344

We were shafted because the roi politicians and republicans were miles ahead of DUP etc in their interest and ability around negotiating this shafting.

but at least we can all agree the unionist community has been shafted.

we were told time and time again that we were powerless to do anything about it ie suck it up. The unionist community have held the DUPs feet to the fire and have achieved an about turn from them. We are working on the others and have turned them around to focus on an issue they thought was sorted.

we have moved from a position of every party outside unionism signing a letter calling for “rigorous implementation” to a point where you will find no politician prepared to utter such words.

we have moved from a position of unilaterally extending grace periods being roundly described as disgraceful and unlawful to a position this week where unilateral extending of grace periods is being roundly welcomed and affirmed.

we have Bertie Ahern agreeing with unionists that the balance achieved under gfa has been negatively impacted.

this was always going to be a long slow battle but we continue to move in the right direction. My hope is that those who may consider upping the anti with violence can continue to be encouraged to let political agitation have the time it needs.

in that piece above, Irish gov “not exaggerating concerns about consequences of no deal in NI”

does he realise that we currently have ‘no deal in NI’. ? I agree with him that it is concerning

But I honestly believe roi and eu are not going to be so inflexible as to see the peace crumble - maybe I’m naive

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020663#Comment_120020663

Supplies have enough nonce to see I have a Uk postcode.

so you say the problem is simply that I don’t like the protocol. Why do you think I don’t like it?

…and while you are at it, could you tell me if you think physical checks between NI and Ireland should be more or less offensive to nationalists than between NI and GB should be to unionists ?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021344#Comment_120021344

You say “They have made the decision with unionist support to create a relationship with the EU through the NIP, part of the WA. Given that the majority of people in NI wanted to remain part of the EU, one could make the claim therefore that the majority of people in NI are happy with an ongoing close relationship with the EU”.

this is technically accurate. Just as technically accurate to say that Ireland and Uk agreed to give the people of the six counties the right to choose whether they want to breakaway with Eire or stay in the UK. Given that NI choose to remain in the UK, one could claim that the majority of people in GB, NI and Eire have been happy for Ni to remain in Uk for the last 100 years. So what has the last 100 years of trying to undo an agreement been about. We are only about 2 years into trying to undo an agreement - I hope we succeed a little quicker.

that is what you mean isn’t it - all the majorities agreed

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120022378#Comment_120022378

They clearly don't, as they didn't supply to you when they absolutely could do so with the protocol.

You don't like the protocol for pure ideological reasons rather than anything based in actual impacts.

You supported the DUP in causing these checks, and you cite actual terrorist groups mouthpieces in trying to justify opposition to something you basically help cause. Surreal.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120022423#Comment_120022423

this is technically accurate.

It's accurate in every way, not just technically!

Just as technically accurate to say that Ireland and Uk agreed to give the people of the six counties the right to choose whether they want to breakaway with Eire or stay in the UK.

Are you referring to the GFA? This was also agreed to by then People of NI through the 1998 Northern Ireland Good Friday Agreement referendum.

I'd also challenge the use of the term "breakaway" instead of reunification.

Given that NI choose to remain in the UK,

This was agreed to within the GFA as an acknowledgement by the governments (rather than a yes/no choice) alongside a parallel acknowledgement that the majority in the Republic and a sizable number in NI wanted reunification. This sizable NI number has continued to increase since 1998.

one could claim that the majority of people in GB, NI and Eire have been happy for Ni to remain in Uk for the last 100 years.

Woah - that's a massive assumption you be made right there with no foundation in reality!

So what has the last 100 years of trying to undo an agreement been about. We are only about 2 years into trying to undo an agreement - I hope we succeed a little quicker.

What agreement over the last 100 years?

As for the 2 years trying to undo an agreement - how has that gone for you?

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120022423#Comment_120022423

So thirty years of conflict in NI and we have

Quote: [Given that NI choose to remain in the UK, one could claim that the majority of people in GB, NI and Eire have been happy for Ni to remain in Uk for the last 100 years. So what has the last 100 years of trying to undo an agreement been about.]

There was an armed insurrection that cost 3,000 lives plus, and also destroyed many more. This appalling situation was brought to an end by the GFA, and has the possibility of being reignited by Brexit and the DUP and Loyalist terror gangs opposition to the NIP.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120022678#Comment_120022678

Wrong. I did not support the dup. I have been a consistent uup voter since before gfa. If there was a vote tomorrow I would be voting DUP. I don’t like them. I don’t like their arrogance and I don’t like their divisive politics. Them and sf are two sides of the one coin, bar the sf/Ira past.

…I know this is like pulling teeth but could you tell me what ideological reasons I might have for opposing the protocol

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120022842#Comment_120022842

Seth you completely misunderstand me. I am referring to 100 years ago when eire and Uk agreed to six counties deciding if the wanted to stay in Uk. Ni decided to stay so everyone happy. Just using Sam’s logic as presented above

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120023311#Comment_120023311

Not sure but I think we are agreeing?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120024009#Comment_120024009

You now support the DUP, the party that caused the protocol. You can make noise about not liking them, but you are voting for them.

That was my point.

This is the DUPs mess to back out out and yet you are voting for them

Your ideological reason is clear. Intransigence. You are willing to vote to further damage NI due to backward ideology

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120024023#Comment_120024023

When did Ireland agree to the six counties remaining or are you referring to the treaty which gave us no choice?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120024023#Comment_120024023

Wait. You're equating the 1922 Treaty which was accepted under the threat of "immediate and terrible war" if it wasn't, and the Withdrawal Agreement which the UK refused to ratify until the EU would agree to the insertion of the NI Protocol?

[But, if you insist on making the equation: despite the coercion involved, Ireland abided by, and continues to abide by, the treaty clause which allowed NI to opt out. How much stronger, then, is the moral and political obligation on the UK to abide by, and continue to abide by, the NI Protocol?]

downcow

Absolutely. You can insert protocol instead of treaty and change the actors a little. Leo didn’t use the same words but him and his friends played the same game.

and as for the teary still being in place. This is the point I am making - republicans and ROI state worked against it and agitated for its change. Ditto.

we were promised cross community consent in gfa should constitutional change be happening. That’s all we want is ensure we have cross community consent prior to hand powers to the European court (a foreign court over which we have zero influence)

Seth Brundle

Absolutely. You can insert protocol instead of treaty and change the actors a little. Leo didn’t use the same words but him and his friends played the same game.

What has Leo got to do with it?

and as for the teary still being in place. This is the point I am making - republicans and ROI state worked against it and agitated for its change. Ditto.

Most Irish people never wanted to be occupied by Britain for centuries. We didn't want the British splitting the country and creating an environment that was purposely designed to create tension and deny rights to those against it. The republicans and ROI were highly critical of the processes in NI that deliberately denied civil rights to the nationalist community.

we were promised cross community consent in gfa should constitutional change be happening.

Sigh! How many court verdicts do you need which repeat the same thing - the constitutional status of NI has not changed because of the NIP. Do you really not trust your courts?

However, the constitutional status of NI may have been risked by the Brexit process (given other international agreements made by the UK) but that is for you to take up with your government - it has nothing to do with the EU or the agreement willing made by the UK government (and championed by the DUP) with the EU.

That’s all we want is ensure we have cross community consent prior to hand powers to the European court (a foreign court over which we have zero influence)

But this is what your government asked for in the WA. This is what your government agreed to in a legally binding international agreement and which your Prime Minister then described as "a fantastic moment". This is what your government won an election on. This is what the then DUP leader described as a "serious and sensible way forward".

So your grievances should all be directed towards your government and the party that you have told us that although you disagree with their policies, you'll still vote for - the DUP.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120025094#Comment_120025094

I am not sure if you are purposely missing my point.

100 years ago your parliament agreed on your behalf that six counties would remain in the Uk. I completely upheld/uphold the right of the Irish people to agitate peacefully to change that agreement. Unfortunately there has been some terrible things done by some republicans to try and change it, but most have remained peaceful agitators.

I hope that those agitating to change this protocol agreement our government has signed up to will remain peaceful, but we will agitate and will continue to get changes.

what we (unionists) have learnt over the last couple of years, that we cannot unlearn, is that the courts say it is ok to transfer powers to European courts of which we have no influence. And here’s the thing - if powers can be transferred to Brussels then what is to stop other powers being transferred to Dublin? As someone who supported the gfa in the face of significant unionist opposition, I am embarrassed. This is not what pro-gfa unionists like myself thought we were signing up to.

so unfortunately even when we get significant changes to the protocol, the gfa will still need renegotiated if it is to be resuscitated

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026342#Comment_120026342

If we take this one snippet from your post: can you back up this one piece to indicate that there was a clear decision by the Irish government to leave NI in the UK?

100 years ago your parliament agreed on your behalf that six counties would remain in the Uk. 

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026358#Comment_120026358

Well history is not my strong point but let’s be honest with each other and clarify this. I’ll put my hands up if I am significantly in error.

I thought that the Dail agreed with Westminster that Eire would partition from Uk They also agreed (I think) that stormont should be allowed to self determin whether they would join in the partition or remain United in the kingdom.

stormont (I thought) chose not to partition and hence remained United with the kingdom.

have I got some of this wrong?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026572#Comment_120026572

Well history is not my strong point

Clearly.

but let’s be honest with each other and clarify this.

I've not been dishonest so not sure why you'd phrase your lack of knowledge as above unless it is deliberately disingenuous

I’ll put my hands up if I am significantly in error.

Well, this will be a first for you on here.

I thought that the Dail agreed with Westminster that Eire would partition from Uk They also agreed (I think) that stormont should be allowed to self determin whether they would join in the partition or remain United in the kingdom.

stormont (I thought) chose not to partition and hence remained United with the kingdom.

have I got some of this wrong?

Please read a history book about where you live. As someone who vehemently defends unionism in NI, you should surely know the basic facts so you don't come across as the village idiot!

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026601#Comment_120026601

I was absolutely not being disingenuous. Indeed I was encouraging us to lift the debate and not get caught up on dancing on pin heads.

your lack of an answer is honestly disappointing. Not sure how we learn if we don’t be more open with eachother

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026631#Comment_120026631

I'm sure you're writing tongue in cheek? We must surely know that there often multiple views of history - so you have one valid perception and Seth and others here have another. All are more or less valid and real to the respective parties. The problem is squaring these historical perceptions with modern reality. All parties would imho, be far better off concentrating on finding points of agreement and ways to get on both together and with this Republic and UK. So agreement is by consensus. What bothers me most is how both the main traditions in NI by default hide behind legislation and demographics instead of getting on with it. You're reaching out in above. Meanwhile Seth is labelling you a village idiot.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026736#Comment_120026736

Well I’m not really writing tongue in cheek. I genuinely believe what I am writing is factually correct - and yes, of course, there is always a bigger story and a context. Hence I am trying to appeal for a shred of consistency from republican posters. They want to present the protocol as, ‘my government agreed it so everyone is happy and it shouldn’t be opposed’.

the world (on this island) is changing. Unionists were dominant, arrogant, and dismissive of nationalist concerns. Nationalists are now dominant, arrogant and dismissive of unionists concerns. Let’s hope young unionists don’t turn to the republican manual to work out how to get noticed

PS ordinary unionists didn’t know they were the above, and I guess ordinary nationalist don’t know they are now the above.

actually and ironically I think the victim position unionists are entering is probably the most comfortable and most powerful. Interesting times ahead