NI Dec 22 Assembly Election

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120415400#Comment_120415400

 You said the Union Jack was the flag of Britain. I pointed out to you it is the national flag of the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland. Fact.

As I said, it is so called because it combines the crosses of the three countries united under one Sovereign - the kingdoms of England and Wales, of Scotland and of Ireland (although since 1921 only Northern Ireland has been part of the U.K.). That is how the Union Jack came about.

Yes, we know the tricolour is supposed to "represents the Green and the Orange", but in N.Ireland it has come to symbolise Republicanism. I suppose not helped by Republicans putting the tricolour on the coffins of IRA bombers who bombed Protestants. Seeing as Republicans hate the Orange, and more often than not would like to see it gone (lets call a spade a spade ), is it not something false about them claiming to respect it on the flag?

But then again, you claimed "Irish rugby is an example of inclusiveness". By singing the Soldiers song as the National anthem, by the use of the tricolour and by singing rebel songs? I asked you already: If you call that inclusive to our Northern Protestant team mates, can you define inclusive?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120415730#Comment_120415730

So republicans who hate the Orange have it on the flag they use? Hmmmm.

You are not adequately explaining here - are you proposing that all flags that are appropiated by groups you don't like are banned/not used?

Re: the anthems.

As NI has no anthem of it's own Ireland's Call was commissioned at to include those whose anthem is not Amhrán na bhFiann.

Amhrán na bhFiann is only used at home matches to be inclusive of the 'home' crowd. Ireland's Call is also sung at home games.

For away matches only Ireland's Call is used. (the Ireland cricket team, similarly an all island team, uses Ireland's Call too I believe)

I think we can say conclusively that it has been a great success and a credit to the all Ireland bodies even if there is a disgruntled rump who would rather burn the whole thing down.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412917#Comment_120412917

As you say, it is so so clear what would happen in a UI. Northern Protestants would have the choice of moving to Britain or being assimilated into the Irish Republic. We even had the Irish National soccer ladies team - the team who represents Ireland - a few months ago chanting "Uh Ah Up the RA" after an international match on British soil. Unfortunately many Republicans saw nothing wrong with that, such has been the level of brainwashing here over the decades. The RA they referred to was the RA of the troubles, many of whose atrocities were the exact same as 9/11, except in scale. Imagine if a Saudi national soccer team sung pro 9/11 bomber chants in America?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120415400#Comment_120415400

We have been here so many times. There was an agreement when irfu formed that games would be played time about in ni and roi. When in ni union flag and gstq and in south tricolour and ss. This was changed after the catholic members of the team had s secret meeting which Protestant players were not invited to which forced irfu to promise never again to play in Belfast, fly union flag or play gstq. This was s purely sectarian meeting, decision and act that lives in to this day.

it is shocking that so many on here do not even recognise it.

It is the one and only reason I do not be arsed watching them and many are like me

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416284#Comment_120416284

You never linked to any back up for this meeting.

When Ireland were due to play Italy in mid 80's (I think) in Belfast, there were calls to play GSTQ. The IRFU pointed to the already agreed protocol for home games to play AnF and Ireland's Call.

They followed what was previously agreed.

As usual the usual crowd were up in arms, but only succeeded in showing what a minority they were, as the team and it's support across the whole island has gone from strenght to strenght.

Here's Rory Best explaining his point of view.

Rory Best has questioned the use of 'God Save the Queen' by the Northern Ireland national football team as their chosen anthem before matches

Best was an Ulster and Ireland r.egular throughout a long career in rugby and previously confirmed that he identifies as both British and Irish.

There were never any obstacles for Best in representing his country and he ultimately became the captain of the Irish team.

On the UTV documentary 'Game of Two Halves', Best put forward the argument that the usage of 'God Save the Queen' by the Northern Ireland national football team lacked inclusivity for squad members of a nationalist persuasion.

He said: “You could liken it to the way Irish rugby was pre-Ireland’s Call."

“For me, it’s potentially not the way an anthem should be. I understand that God Save The Queen is Northern Ireland’s anthem because we’re part of the United Kingdom.

“It also always strikes a chord with me, that’s what you hear when you’re in Twickenham, and you’re getting ready to play England.

“You don’t want to say that you find it strange because it is the anthem of Northern Ireland, but in terms of everything that I’ve done in sport, it’s been about including people. It’s not very inclusive.”

While the Irish rugby team do sing the national anthem, Amhrán na bhFiann, before games, they also sing Ireland's Call which is representative of players with a northern unionist background.

Best outlined the environment of inclusivity formed in the Irish rugby squad thanks to the use of Ireland's Call alongside Amhrán na bhFiann.

He continued: “It could be the worst song in the world, but it’s about respect.

“It’s about making sure that no matter where you are from that there is a part of you in that song, there’s an area that you’re from in that song, and all that comes together to form Irish rugby.”

Rory Best questions Northern Ireland footballers' use of 'God Save the Queen' anthem - Irish Mirror Online

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416284#Comment_120416284

Can you prove this meeting actually happened?'

I've actually attended a Ireland game in Ravenhill, as it happens, so the 'never again to play in Belfast' bit is absolutely a fantasy, but I suspect the rest is too.

The capacity is too low to be throwing money away hosting games there frequently.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416455#Comment_120416455

I wouldn't blame them from staying away tbh.

Their policy of inclusivity has been a massive success and anytime they go to play there, there is a such a rumpus kicked up by a tiny disgruntled minority it only causes division.

Nobody is ever going to be able to include all, from either side, but top marks have to be given to the IRFU for what they have succeeded in doing.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416370#Comment_120416370

i am closer to this than I can say, but suffice to say that is the required public presentation of a player wants a future connected to the irfu. Privately I can assure you not all players feel like this. I have raised it before on here that academics have shown that minorities around 20% and below are inclined to keep their heads down and say nothing that would rattle the majority. This is what Best is at here.

but since you hold him up in this article do you agree he was right to identify discrimination when only ss was played? And this his where his argument falls down. It is not ok to play Irish anthem only, but if you add a random song about the entire team as well then it’s suddenly ok.

anyone who cannot see the inequality of the situation has a long journey to travel.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416284#Comment_120416284

Firstly of all you have zero proof such a meeting happened, honestly ive never heard of such a rumour before your post and it really just sounds like a convenient unionist conspiracy theory. Secondly Ravenhill has a third of the capacity that Landsdowne does and the IRFU would be throwing tens of millions of euros away in ticket sales not to mention concessions etc by regularly hosting games there.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416484#Comment_120416484

i am closer to this than I can say,

Oh for goodness sake, you can either back up what you claimed or you can't.

I fully agree that only playing Amhrán na bhFiann would be wrong.

I am fully behind what the IRFU have achieved.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416455#Comment_120416455

I can try and find you the book that it is included in in detail. I posted it here some time ago. The last time I tried to find it I struggled but I will try.

I am aware of a game at ravenhill. I am not a rugby guy but it is my understanding that it was downgraded from a full international simply because the irfu are aware of the agreement to play gstq when playing a home game in Uk. Or are you saying there was no such agreement?? I may be wrong about the downgrading, but tell us a little more about the game and we can check

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416501#Comment_120416501

A very lame excuse. I am not saying reguarally.

if irfu played one small game every 10 years in Belfast and applied the Dublin rule ie gstq, it would transform my support for them. They could even have Michelle walk out and shake hands as first minister. I would expect that also as fairness

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416511#Comment_120416511

It was a full international, and only Irelands Call was played.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416524#Comment_120416524

One friendly or world cup prep match maybe but the idea of playing an autumn international or six nations game there is ludicrous.

I notice you ignored everyone's point about your lack of proof for what basically amounts to libel?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416284#Comment_120416284

You are right there Downcow. AnbF (the Soldiers Song) should certainly not be played at a sporting event where the team is from two jurisdictions. There may be the exception but generally the reality is the lyrics dont exactly inspire comfort among the Northern players. At least it shows many in N.I. what would happen in the case of a U.I. Northern Protestants would have the choice of moving to Britain or being assimilated into the Irish Republic.

I would suggest drop both AnbF and GSTQ from rugby matches. If anything has to be played, play something neutral like Ireland's Call or Danny Boy or something like that.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416526#Comment_120416526

v Italy 2007. Full international test game, which is:

A test match in rugby union is an international match, usually played between two senior national teams, that is recognised as such by at least one of the teams' national governing bodies.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416574#Comment_120416574

The evidence is presented here (See Rory Best interview) that the players understand the complexities and are happy with the arrangement as it is and showed that in the service they gave and the way they played for Ireland.

Can you present any evidence for your claim 'the reality is the lyrics dont exactly inspire comfort among the Northern players'.

FrancieBrady

I found your 'story' @downcow. It comes from a book by a French author. Nobody has verified it, and to be honest, it sounds like something he heard in a bar somewhere.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/feb/27/comment.gdnsport3

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416530#Comment_120416530

Tell me which what exactly you would like evidence for. History here has shown that no matter what I produce some posters will say that that is not what they meant. So just be clear what I said that you would like evidence for?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416601#Comment_120416601

If you think Northern Protestants would generally like or feel represented by AnaF, you have a lot to learn about northern politics.

As Downcow correctly said," suffice to say that is the required public presentation of a player wants a future connected to the irfu. Privately I can assure you not all players feel like this. I have raised it before on here that academics have shown that minorities around 20% and below are inclined to keep their heads down and say nothing that would rattle the majority. This is what Best is at here"

Well put Downcow. Best to keep the head down. If a crowd or a team start chanting Uh Ah Up the RA, it would take a brave person to raise their head above the parapet. I would suspect no northern Protestant will sing the anti-English rebel song "Fields of Athenry" with as much fervour as it is sung at Glasgow Celtic matches. But who would be brave enough to speak up?

As someone else pointed out, some reasonable Ulster rugby people wonder why it was okay for players from the unionist tradition to stand respectfully in Dublin for an anthem they didn't consider their own, but that courtesy could not be returned for a rare Test match in Belfast. Thousands of those in attendance at International rugby matches in Dublin are from unionist backgrounds, and will stand for Amhrán na bhFiann, but the courtesy is seldom if ever returned. No wonder the Protestant population of the 26 counties went from 10% or 11% before independence to 3% a generation or two later. Had to keep the head down, be assimilated or get out.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416645#Comment_120416645

Rory Best knows it is not intended to represent him, but he can live and let live. Because the IRFU have taken steps to be inclusive of him.

Not everyone is waiting to be offended by a song or a bit of Irish Francis. Not everyone is seeking out videos of a few girls having a sing song in their dressing room to get in a strop about.

They want to get on and play their sport and give to their teams and supporters.

GSTQ is not the official anthem of NI, it doesn't have an anthem like Wales, Scotland and England.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416622#Comment_120416622

Thanks francie. You saved me a search. There are better reports if I can find them.

you see I don’t claim things that are not true. I’ll not hold my breath for posters to declare their surprise that I am correct again. I suppose I’ll be accused again of a ‘gotcha’

now would anyone like to review their position after reading that link from francie

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416684#Comment_120416684

All you have to do now downcow is find verification that this happened. It remains an anecdote until then. Kinda like, 'my friend told me this...'

Posters are correct here, you have zero proof this happened. You posted it originally as a fact and didn't mention it was an anecdote in a book very few have heard of.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416660#Comment_120416660

You say “Not everyone is waiting to be offended by a song or a bit of Irish Francis”

so francie tell me why people get so upset about any intention to play gstq at a home rugby game in Belfast ? Or indeed both anthems relevant to the island and both flags at Dublin games? I think you argument is in tatters again.

downcow

It’s all gone quiet francie since you posted the reason there are no games in Belfast. Only you have the courage to continue. Foolhardy or brave? I’m not sure

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416684#Comment_120416684

You need to do some research in what the basic standards of verification are.

One reference in a book from 15 years ago that is not in itself referenced to anywhere is not verifiable.

Events have already shown us one claim is untrue (that they would never play in Belfast again)

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416715#Comment_120416715

Because GSTQ is not the anthem of NI. NI has no agreed flag either.

The Commonwealth Games team even recognise this and use an obsolete flag of the former NI government o and the Derry Air/Danny Boy as the anthem

Irish Cricket use Ireland's Call.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416733#Comment_120416733

Forgot to point that out.

TBH I am picturing someone like Moss Keane, full of porter, standing on a table telling that yarn. 😁

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416724#Comment_120416724

Like Jamie you'll claim a victory no matter what.

It's a 'story' downcow that you repeated as fact, without any proof it actually happened.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416684#Comment_120416684

A single non attributable anecdote is not proof of anything.