Ireland A v All Black xv

CMcsporty

To ruck ‘properly’ involves studs!

Tigerandahalf

Ireland's pack was well beaten. Impressed by NZ's. Their scrum was strong and their lineout looked like they had been getting their practice in. They were also up for it physically.

Ireland made the classic mistake of trying to play and pass too much instead of taking it up and clearing out the rucks. Too often their play broke down and NZ being clinical just punished the turnover.

The 7 for NZ looked very good. Indeed their backrow completely outplayed Ireland and Timoney, Prendergast and Coombes are no bad combo. There might be a few of these NZ lads in the first XV soon.

I thought Casey was poor tonight. Too often he tried to speed up the play when Ireland needed to settle it down and allow forwards to resource the ruck area. We were very poor at protecting our ball. It is madness really that John Cooney is left out of the picture. He would have been ideal there tonight.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119834991#Comment_119834991

Also ideally the forwards actually ruck to begin with and not leave it to the SH that would be great.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119834983#Comment_119834983

But in future it shouldnt have to be like this. There will be extra players in with senior squad already and any who play tonight wont be involved tomorrow as they just wont play in 2 games 2 days in a row.

We cant have full senior internationals outside of the Aviva so any other senior games should be played outside of Dublin. Theres so many other venues that should be used.

Southern hemisphere sides all bring all their senior test games around multiple venues. we wont do that but should be bringing all other international games putside of Dublin

Gusser09

Its a mute point at this stage re Sexton. Still our best 10 by a long way. Seriously concerning though we are relying on a guy of his age and when he goes after the world cup we dont have any real successor lined up. The guy will 38 by the time the world cup arrives around. Am i the only one who finds that a concern? We really needed to use the matches to try someone else.

CIARAN_BOYLE

The New Zealand 9 and 10 were imperious.

The discipline of the Irish side conceding just 3 penalties was admirable. The New Zealanders gave away 13.

Honestly there could have been another 10. It wouldn't have been though. If the referee drew a line I doubt New Zealand would have walked past it the way that they did. The New Zealand team knew that the referee was letting things go and they took advantage of that. Still would have been a New Zealand victory no matter what.

Jeremy Loughman is one player who imo will come out of this with credit in the bank which is imo very good given that LH is a position worth worrying about.

Osbourne was another to come away with credit and at 20 this could be an amazing learning experience for him.

The Kiwis were excellent. Absolutely better than us in every single facet of the game. Damian McKenzie was just awesome to watch; always looked like he had so much time on the ball. Ruben Love is a star; he's still only 21, and will definitely be an All Black. I also thought Dominic Gardiner was superb too. I think that NZ side would batter Wales or Scotland too fwiw.

On the Irish side, very few enhanced their reputation in any way. I thought Jamie Osborne showed some nice moments, and Jeremy Loughman distributed well. Crowley did bring a spark when introduced too.

Quite a few guys harmed their chances of playing at a higher level tonight. Our back row was fundamentally outplayed. They savaged our breakdown repeatedly. Dominated collisions. Coombes was the worst of the three but all were poor. I watched him closely tonight in the ground, because I have felt he's due a shot at a higher level, but on nights like tonight I would ask if he suits the style of play Ireland want to play. He just looks too plodding and slow getting around the field. He's undoubtedly the best player in Irish rugby probably 5m out from the line, but that's a small part of the role. His athleticism doesn't look to be where it needs to be.

Didn't click for Frawley tonight, and the questions around whether he is a natural 10 or not are still out there for me.

Nights like tonight make you realise our much vaunted depth maybe isn't what we think it is.

sydthebeat

Some players tonight definitely didn't play to their "reputations" and the clamouring from certain fans to have them playing test games against the biggest rivals.

No harm in a bit of grounding and for some to actually experience as close to top level test rugby as possible.

No harm either in the coaches seeing how teams are going to defend against their systems. Ireland really missed a second playmaker tonight on the wing. Stockdale and Nash are out and out wingers and did very little link up play in midfield. It showed how central to our system that Lowe and hansen are.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835011#Comment_119835011

No you're not the only one 🤣

All Irish fans have been concerned about that since 2019....

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119834873#Comment_119834873

Watching rugby with any sort of impartiality obviously isn't your strong suit. The ref was fine. The Irish forward were the ones that put in a dreadful performance. The only person looking superior tonight was Damien MacKensie 😆

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835011#Comment_119835011

No team aiming to win a RWC should be reliant on one player, important yes but other players in the starting 15 need to step up and pull their weight.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835055#Comment_119835055

Maybe you are the one who needs to be impartial, based on you're comments you came into tonight with a pre conceived notion on how Irish fans are with refs meaning you probably gave Carley the benefit of the doubt.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835034#Comment_119835034

I have always been a big advocate of Coombes but I take your point. He wasn't at the races this evening and you would have to ask if he has the pace and athleticism at the very highest level. A tight attritional game suits him and Ireland are migrating away from that style of play. Have a feeling that Deegan will move ahead of him in the pecking order after tonight, he made more of an impact in his 20mins off the bench and is more mobile.

Have a horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach that our backrow might be overwhelmed tomorrow too. Especially if we see a similar refeeing performance where a lot is let go at ruck time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835003#Comment_119835003

I do agree on this, and the attendance tonight was a little underwhelming, but logistically, it's probably too big an ask on the coaching team to have it in in separate cities. Obvious solution would be to have a second coaching ticket, but then you're probably undermining some of the benefits of having an opportunity to impress the main coaches.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119834688#Comment_119834688

I think he played his best when in the 12 channel

Playing at 10, he was either absent, or very predictable

almostover

Three things stood out for me on the ref.

1. The Crowley tackle was a stonewall red.

2. Caolin Blade was played at a ruck by a player who Wass off his feet. And by played I mean neck rolled.

3. NZ gave several cynical penalties away in their 22 under pressure and they didn't receive even one YC warning.

Wouldn't fancy him in charge for a high stake game. NZ learned quickly to play it on and over the edge and he did feck all to limit them doing so. Weak referring performance IMO. Also, must acknowledge it made zero difference on the outcome. NZ were going to be 30 pts to the good regardless.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835121#Comment_119835121

Forgot the no arms high hit on Lowry. On reflection Carly was shite. Did zero with respect to player welfare.

Locke_Lamora

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835037#Comment_119835037

A little reality check should do us a world of good, saw too many people online dismissing that new zealand XV. I, for one, welcome our new Highlander overlords.

Didn't really buy into us having a 'strong' A side which seemed to be the consensus. Mostly because of the front 5, they struggle to win collisions and don't impose themselves in defence. Didn't see our backrow being outplayed as comprehensively as they were but Jacobson and Mikaele-Tu'u are fantastic players who weren't really given the proper respect pre-game. Casey was taught a lesson at times by TJP, but we couldn't protect our rucks at all. Centres came in with reputations but Hume doesn't have enough recent professional experience at 12 and both players are flat-footed and slow in defence, a recipe for disaster against NZ. JOB was a huge loss because, as you said, we didn't have wingers that come in and create despite them playing ok in other facets, thought Lowry could've done better in that regard.

NZ looked great. Nothing complicated, just won the tackle area, won the collisions, offloaded, and had players in the backline that knew when to move the ball and could move it with quick and accurate passing. Simple.

CMcsporty

I don’t know what Farrell was expecting from Frawley tonight.

You pick him at 10 but he is not playing at 10 with his province. Hopefully the experiment is over.

I thought Coombes had the physical attributes to make it a test level. I think it’s fair to say he has limitations at this level.

At least the backrow is not a position we are struggling for options.

9 and 10 backups are a serious concern

1 and 3 backups also a concern. Loughman at least did ok.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119834957#Comment_119834957

The question was ‘how good was Sexton when he had as many caps as Frawley or Crowley’?

I would say winning a Heineken Cup (having beaten Munster and Leicester) is a fair barometer to compare the three, no? Nothing was said about age, it was about Ireland caps. Neither Frawley nor Crowley have a senior international cap.

If you want to bang on about ages though, Frawley is nearly 25 and Crowley will be 23 in January. I already pointed out there was plenty of room for them to grow and develop, but when the RWC is over we are f*cked unless someone steps up big time.

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835097#Comment_119835097

You probably want multiple games to justify a second coaching tickets. An A six nations rather than a one off autumn international.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835080#Comment_119835080

Yeah I probably do have a pre-conceived notion on how match threads are going to go. After years of reading and posting on this site I know there'll be a bunch of fans bitching abou td the ref no matter what and I'm going to call them on it. And mock their childish whinging.

One of them earlier said Tuipolotu's tackle was a a definite red, a "cheekbone breaker". Funnily enough there was a cheekbone breaking tackle in the ABs v Ireland series in July and a lot of Irish fans justifying that one being a yellow. For the record, I wasn't 100% sure there was head contact tonight. From the pictures I saw I thought Crowley's head whiplashed from the force of the hit.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835171#Comment_119835171

Its very interesting to hear that Sexton won that HCup entirely on his own.

Dubinusa

Very disappointing result. Well ooutplayed. It looked like our lads just met in the locker room. Did they only have a week to prepare?

Casey, Coombes and Frawley were poor, imo. I'm a big fan of Casey but, tonight was not a good one for him. Coombes just isn't athletic enough and physically he was handled easy. Thornbury also looked lost. He's tall with a lean build. He's not a good ball carrier.

TJ and McKenzie were brilliant. They rode us like a virgin on her wedding night. I'm not sure about Frawley at 10 either. He needs game time there with Leinster. It's a big ask to chuck him in against these lads tonight and expect good play.

Good learning experience. A good beat down to get the boys up for the next challenge.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835249#Comment_119835249

Yeah, plus you just won't have that natural cohesion of playing style as well.

I don't think tonight's fixture was a mistake. We got exposed by a much better side, and learned some harsh lessons, but it's a better sign of where we need to be than watching our players beating up on poor Scottish/Italian/Welsh sides in the URC.

JimmyCorkhill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835034#Comment_119835034

Good post.

Similar to yourself I am not convinced about Frawley as a 10 nor was I ever really, I always saw him as the distributing no 12. Just unfortunate he is behind Henshaw at Leinster.

Crowley is the other potential number 10 I am looking forward to seeing more of for Munster.

Osborne is a player I really like every time I see him at Leinster, I think he will become a really good player.

Your point on Coombes & being the best in Ireland from 5m out, but question marks over his athleticism at the top top level are very valid.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835258#Comment_119835258

Casey was playing behind a pack that was going backwards/beaten so of course it wasnt going to be a good night for him. Coombes was poor but i dont think is was anything to do with athleticism.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835257#Comment_119835257

Nobody said he did?

People get really weird about sh*te like this. I said Sexton could play until his 40s and nobody would threaten him. Then some Munster fan pops up with ‘yeah well dur how good was he when he had the same number of caps as Frawley and Crowley’. I point out the clear fact that he won a Heineken Cup as a starting 10. Someone else comes back with some weird stuff about age, and now you pop up with some complete bollocks about something nobody said.

Unless any of you are here to tell me that Crowley or Frawley are at the same level Sexton was back then, then I really don’t understand why you all feel the need to get into this. It’s really not that deep.

EDIT: I genuinely can’t believe I’m bothering my arse to discuss this with people who clearly aren’t willing to discuss this in good faith. Complete time wasters and is it any wonder this forum has gone to the absolute dogs for any kind of discussion.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835308#Comment_119835308

Comparing players is hard. so many variables. Comparing Sexton who arrived while Leinster were emerging as HCup champs, with Crowley who's in a team fighting for qualification for HCup next season.

Stats are not comparable

Nobody is denying that Sexton is an excellent player. If he had arrived 2 years earlier, when ROG was at his peak, Sexton could have been passed over as Rog was un-droppable and David Humphries was still holding the 22 slot. There's a chance he would have been passed over and then the 'next man up' takes his shirt and Sexton is a good 12 instead of a world class 10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835011#Comment_119835011

I'd be more concerned if I didn't think that Sexton would quite likely be starting Outhalf for:

England

Wales

Scotland

Australia

South Africa

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119834869#Comment_119834869

I would think the coaches will take value from examining NZs defensive structure against us, and how they went about targeting our patterns

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835333#Comment_119835333

This is a fair post.

I was asked a question about how good Sexton was when he had the same number of Ireland caps as Crowley and Frawley (0) and I pointed out that he was good enough to win a Heineken Cup as a starting 10. Yes, the Leinster team was good, but it doesn’t diminish the role he played in the final and especially the semi-final, when Munster and Leinster were arguably as close as they have ever been.

Basically the OP was an attempt to get a dig in at me in a truly bizarre way by implying that Sexton wasn’t as good or wasn’t much better than Crowley and Frawley are at this stage of their careers. He absolutely was.

There was really nothing wrong in what I said. It was very innocuous and some people, for some reason, took it personally.

ulsteru20s

I think its hard to destroy too many backs in this as the pack got monstered. They didnt play together much and guys like Hume were playing out of position.

In saying that, I thought Crowley showed flashes, as did Prendergast, Deegan, Barron, Moore, Osborne, Nash, Daly… probably a few more.

I feel bad for guys like coombes, hume, lowry, and timoney. Its a no win situation playing in A games.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835055#Comment_119835055

In fairness the ref was pretty awful but that had nothing to do with the result. NZ physically dominated every aspect of the game. If you give a player like McKenzie that kind of platform he will destroy you. He is just a class act.

Clegg

Ireland were thoroughly outplayed and can't complain about the trouncing received.

But what annoys me is how simple some of New Zealand's trys were. Yes, they worked hard to create certain mismatches on the pitch, but Ireland definitely shot themselves in the foot on a few occasions.

New Zealand's first try was from a cross field kick to the wing where Craig Casey, the shortest man on the pitch, was the sole defender. They were always going to score. Another try came from Ireland botching an attacking lineout from the NZ 10m line. Another came from Hume having a mare defensively around halfway. Crowley threw an intercept for another.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835458#Comment_119835458

You're wrong about the ref. But you're right about the physical domination. If DMack gets an armchair ride like that, he will cut most teams to pieces.

ShineyShiney

Yikes !!

Anyone have an opinion on Casey?

I think I have a blind spot with him, I just don't see it. Ever.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835507#Comment_119835507

When a ref can manage to be inconsistent in his interpretations within the space of 2 minutes. That is poor refereeing. The NZ hooker May as well have been throwing directly to McKenzie, the throws were that crooked. Several of the incidents the TMO highlighted to him, he was looking straight at and failed to pick up on. The rucks were a complete mess and offside didn’t exist. Other than that he had a great game.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835531#Comment_119835531

I think like Mike Lowry his size is going to limit his career.

He got no good ball tonight, the back were annihilated.

ulsteru20s

Casey has the best pass in ireland imo at pretty much any length. I think that’s his best skill by a mile.

I thought he was poor today.

Dubinusa

I wonder how long NZ had together to train? They looked like a cohesive team. We were poor all around. If we only trained for a week, it showed. You'd have to wonder how we'd have fared if Big Joe and Ahern had playerd? Losing McCarthy was a disaster.

I don't reckon Thornbury or Molony have the power to play top level sides. Maybe one alongside Henderson would be ok? Our side lacked power. They lacked a lot of things! But, it will give them all a good kick up the hole.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835604#Comment_119835604

NZ team were only together a week.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835561#Comment_119835561

What 2 minutes are you referring to? Didn't notice any exceptionally crooked throws but I did notice the kiwis owning Ireland's lineout.several TMO incidents? Were there that many? The one he got wrong was Jacobson's yellow. Should have been a penalty only. The rucks were contests and ireland were not muscled or out resourced. Offside line is something that can be argued every game by both teams. Didn't favour one team.

Dubinusa

We can't blame the ref. He isn't a good ref, imo but, NZ got on with it and played as they were allowed.

How McKenzie isn't in the 1st squad is nuts. Best player on the field.

Neil3030

Fantastic lesson for the younger players tonight. If the EI tour of SA was important for them to get used to the systems, tonight was important to see how well they could implement those systems under ferocious pressure from an organized, physical and aggressive opposition. NZ were by far the better side and our young lads will learn more from tonight than from any game where they come out easy winners. Very happy that the coaching team put together both the Maori games, the SA tour and these A games (SA should be another good test in Cork), which will all combine to really bolster our battle-ready options in the wider playing pool.

Former Former Former

It's no harm to get a bit of a reality check 10 months out from the RWC either. We have a habit of convincing ourselves that our depth is better than it is and that we have a plethora of test-level guys who just can't get a break from a conservative or blinkered coach. It's really not the case.

A lot of these forwards were being talked about as needed for the first XV to bring more "power" into the pack. Think we can park that now.

I think what was most disappointing was that some of the players who are closer to the first team were among the worst performers. I know Casey was behind a beaten pack but he was poor, that try from the cross-kick had nothing to do with his size and everything to do with lack of positioning and awareness. Coombes was anonymous and I see references to Hume being out of position but if he can play 13 and only 13, his test career is already over. Stockdale looked rusty, hopefully another hit-out against Fiji will help sharpen him up.

Both Frawley and Crowley mixed glimpses of real rugby talent with poor decision making, think they are both worth persevering with but I'd stake my not-inconsiderable reputation that come September, Sexton and Carbery will still be the main men.

There were some nice glimpses of less hyped players, I thought Nash and Osborne showed up well and Marty Moore knocked a few Kiwis over when he came on.

As for the Kiwis, for a scratch side, the cohesion and interplay was incredible. Great to see lads throwing blind passes not in the hope of someone being on his shoulder but knowing someone will be on his shoulder. They over-stepped the mark in physicality a few times but we just rolled over and took it, and they absolutely dominated us (legally) at nearly every breakdown.

mr_edge_to_you

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835694#Comment_119835694

Ref was poor but when a team racks up 47 points and wins by 28.....it's because they are better team.

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835694#Comment_119835694

He is with the second team as punishment for missing Super Rugby season to play in Japan.

He is back in New Zealand now and is earning his way back into the squad fresh. He played well in NPC cup.

I expect him to be in the world cup squad next year.

Buddy Bubs

McKenzie was a joy to watch, was like an international player coming back to play against amateurs. He enjoyed himself out there.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835631#Comment_119835631

He pinged Nash correctly for getting back to his feet in a tackle. Then less than two minutes later, the NZ 8 did the exact same thing which he had a very clear view of and it was play on. That was directly in front of where we were standing. Those kind of inconsistencies are infuriating.

The rucks were a mess because he was allowing NZ players to flop off their feet to prevent clear outs. Side entry is clearly not a thing for him along with crooked throws.

As I said it was not his reffing that cost us the game. It was a lack of physicality but his performance was seriously poor for an international ref. I couldn’t understand the yellow to be honest but at the same time, how did he not give a penalty for the high hit in Lowry. Wasn’t a card but was absolutely a penalty.