Boards DCM22 Graduates Thread - A Deeper Understanding

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119860952#Comment_119860952

Thanks man, that's really nice of you to say, and welcome aboard.

It's difficult not to be hard on yourself when the marathon doesn't go to plan, but you shouldn't be. I had a very similar race experience to you in 2018, a sufferfest for the last 10k. I learnt tons from it though, and you will too.

Don't be worrying either about your age, turned 46 myself this year and feel fitter than I ever have. We've a lot more to do in this game you and I, a sub 3:45 is absolutely doable. Have a look at @Kellygirl's training log for inspiration on that front.

The 'maybe slowed down a little on some of my runs' could well be the key to big improvement for you.

I would use your 1:43 half for the calculator if I were you, to get your training paces.

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119861232#Comment_119861232

Excellent stuff. Delighted you're weighing in with your expertise. 😊

Dublin334

Many thanks @Lazare for taking this on and helping guide us to the next goal. DCM 2022 was my first effort at any kind of distance running and at the ripe old age of 49 I am truly delighted to have completed it. Got a great laugh out of the articles the last few days on the Garda who took the Luas for the second half of the race. I actually had packed my Leap card with me just in case of injury and being stranded, miles from the city centre.

Now that you’ve completed the marathon, what’s next, what are your immediate goals?

Not really sure where to go next. I only picked up running 3 or 4 years ago and only ever did park runs or 5 mile runs up until this year. Over the next few months there are a few 5 mile races (Clontarf and Raheny) that I hope to complete but I haven't really thought any further. I entered the 2023 DCM but that was really to keep it open for now rather than seriously thinking about it. My immediate target will be to just to have a plan/routine of 3/4 runs a week with one of those being longish (60 mins or so)

What is the pinnacle of what you aspire to achieve with running? Dream big with this one, and have huge confidence in yourself.

I would really like to have gone sub 4 in the 2022 DCM and that's the biggest target in running that I would have like to achieved.

Out of all the things you had control over, what would you have done differently in the lead up to your marathon?

This is a big question for me. I am not sure I could have done anything different in my preparation as I completed the novice plan exactly as per schedule and paces. I just can't figure out what happened in those last 10-12kms when the wheels came off. I had done FD HM in 1.45 and felt I was pacing myself really well for the first 16-18 miles of DCM (about 8.50 per mile).

Hydration was good as I stopped at every water station on the way.

HR was really steady (around 140) so I think my fitness was good and never felt under pressure with the speed.

Nutrition - had taken 2 gels by mile 14 and perhaps should have gone with another one but not sure it would have made a big difference

Just can't figure out why I went so flat so quickly after mile 18. Had to walk a good portion of last 10km and finished at 4:10 having slowed by about 15-20 mins on pace for first 3/4s of the race. Post race I heard loads of experienced runners talking about humidity being a big issue and many suffered that hadn't in other DCMs. But that could be just me tuning in to these stories and trying to comprehend why I struggled. I think I wouldn't be ready to tackle another marathon unless I have figured out what I could change to try and master that last part of the race.

Hoping that some of the experienced runners can help me figure that piece out.

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119864913#Comment_119864913

Great stuff Dublin334, you're more than welcome, thank you for jumping in.

Re your immediate goals, the Grads base phase is perfect for you (for everyone really). Do you think you could stretch to five days a week? You seem to have a really solid fitness right now, keeping her lit with 5x days of mostly easy running for the next few weeks will build so much on that.

I think many of us were scratching our heads like you were after DCM. Just like you I felt on fire up until mile 18. I was actually shocked that cramp started to poke it's head up. There's probably myriad factors that led to it, not adjusting fueling to the weather conditions etc but the main one is our inexperience at the distance. As @E.coli says above it can take ten years of learning to become good at 26.2.

Basically don't beat yourself up. Onwards.

Sub 4 is pretty easily achievable for you. I think, with the right approach and intelligent training you could shoot a little better than that at DCM23.

DeepBlue

@Lazare

not adjusting fueling to the weather conditions etc but the main one

Hope you don't mind asking what changes one would/should make regarding fuel and weather?

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119867030#Comment_119867030

I'm a long way away from an expert on fueling, some more knowledgeable folk will answer this better.

I think the high and unusual humidity on the day played a role in so many people reporting cramp. Cramping afterall is due to a sodium deficiency. Excess sweating pretty much.

Maybe a more experienced marathoner would have made changes that morning to electrolyte intake, sodium intake. It seems though to be kinda outlier stuff that we probably shouldn't be too concerned with.

I would hazard a guess that ''normal' weather variability shouldn't cause you to change your fueling strategy.

Lazare

I'll set up a Strava group once we have our little band of improvers together. Maybe next weekend.

I think a weekly update also will be good, posted over the weekend. Tell us how your week went, good and bad. Start now if you like.

I also like the idea of every Sunday asking ourselves that third question. 'Out of everything you had control over this week, what would you have done differently'.

I mean ask yourself the question privately. I think it's a valuable thing to do regularly, it allows us reflect and nip bad habits in the bud.

It's important though I feel to not include when life gets in the way of running. That's just part of it. If your kid is sick and you've had a sh1tty sleep, and too tired to do your Saturday run, that's not something that's in your control. That's life.

If you should have ran that 5 mile run at 9 min pace and you ran it at 8:20 because you felt great, well, that's something you can include. 😊

Pawwed Rig

My log for this week

This week I did an easy 10k on Monday and Wednesday with a more difficult 14.5k on Thurs. Difficulty due to headwinds and hills (city centre to Sandyford) rather than pushing it.

Yesterday I did a 2.5k slow run down to St Anne's for parkrun and had a crack at my pb coming up short by 5 seconds.

'Out of everything you had control over this week, what would you have done differently'.

A guy I know passed me at the 3k mark of the parkrun and finished <20 secs ahead of me. If I had stuck with him (which I think I could have) I would have pb'd.

Jbat

My heart rate seems to still be a couple of beats higher than before the marathon so I think I’ll do one or two more easy runs this week before starting the base plan properly the following week.

my own two cents on the fueling (at least what worked for me): I took a lot of gels during the marathon, starting from 20 mins in and by the end was living gel to gel (at least that’s what it felt like). From reading a bit before the marathon it seems like bigger runners need more fuel which seems to make sense and it worked for me as I think I definitely would have hit the wall if I only took 2 or 3 gels.

(although definitely worth practicing in training as I had a some stomach issues towards the end of some long runs)

skyblue46

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119864913#Comment_119864913

Re fuelling....this is where I would be looking to find improvement. 2 gels in 14 miles is simply not enough for someone pushing themselves to their present limits. An experienced runner who jumps out of bed and runs 15-18 miles fasted every Sunday morning may have slightly different requirements but the carbs you burn need replacing and your intake simply wasn't sufficient.

Dublin334

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119870342#Comment_119870342

Many thanks @skyblue46 , @Jbat , @Lazare for the fuelling tips. Its an area I will work on for any future distance running. I definitely want to avoid that 'flat/empty' feeling occurring again in a race.

MisterJinx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871560#Comment_119871560

Just for reference, I am looking at fueling as well to imrove on it but I took 5 gels and some chews for dcm.

The Black Oil

Great to see this thread going. I've used all parts of the Grads plan, apart from the 10k-HM, successfully - including getting to sub 4. The base phase is always worth doing too.

Mr. Guappa

Just catching up on this thread... Best of luck to everyone - you're all in great hands with @Lazare

I'm another who can vouch for the grads plans. Following my first DCM (2018) I pretty much exclusively followed the grads plans for the following 12 months and improved from 4:13 in DCM '18 to 3:47 a year later. And I still regularly dip back into them, and will use the base plan again shortly.

Turkish1

Thanks for setting this up @Lazare. Never would I have thought that I would sign up to one marathon as I was always a team sports person and the thought of running for hours on end held no appeal.. Alas COVID struck and with a busy work and home life I really enjoyed the mental break that running brought.

Now that you’ve completed the marathon, what’s next, what are your immediate goals?

Got COVID a couple days after the marathon so only getting back into the running now. Initial thoughts on my goals are to generally keep the running going (4+ times a week) and don't creep back into bad habits diet wise and put weight back on (was 97kg in Jan, ran marathon at about 82kg). Overall to run 2400km+ next year.

Somewhat arbitrary numbers but my initial thoughts on some very tough (but achievable) time based targets for the year are

5km - Sub 20min (current best 21:18)

10km - Sub 40min (current best 42:46)

HM - Sub 1:30 (current best 1:37:06)

Marathon: Sub 3:30 (DCM 22 - 3:57)

What is the pinnacle of what you aspire to achieve with running? Dream big with this one, and have huge confidence in yourself.

Long term, maybe a sub 3:15marathon and to run one of the big one's abroad. To still be running consistently in 3+years.

Out of all the things you had control over, what would you have done differently in the lead up to your marathon?

A few things stand out. Last 5 weeks of training went poorly - got a chest infection, sessions dropped from 6/week to c. 4/week. Didn't really get any good long runs in for the last month or so with the taper.. Diet tailed off a bit towards the end aswell (when it probably should have been even more important).

In terms of on the day itself, I don't think I would change anything - similar to others I felt really strong up until about the last 6-8miles and then it was a case of digging in (with quite a bit of walking) to get to the finish line. Wouldn't change anything as even though those last miles were very tough both physically and mentally I enjoyed the day and experience enormously. I will take some learnings from it no doubt, and it has also made me sign up for DCM 23 as I feel I have unfinished business. Had it all gone to plan I don't think I would be back here looking to do another marathon - every cloud and all that...

Overall feels like I need to build that aerobic base so that my shorter (up to HM) times translate into a better full marathon. Leaning towards loosely following the base block, then focusing on the shorter distances for first 4-5months of next year before hitting into building that aerobic base and into a marathon block again.

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877165#Comment_119877165

Fantastic to have you join up with us Turkish. You've a great attitude, and some really nice ambitious targets that show you have confidence in yourself.

With good intelligent training, and that confidence those targets are all achievable individually. It may be challenging to hit them all in 2023, especially with DCM on the schedule.

The Bob Heffernan in May is a perfect target for a sub 20 5k. I did that exact thing in 2019. 20 weeks of training including base from Jan and it worked. Had a similar pb to you too in Jan. It doesn't give you a lot of time to target the 90min half, but that's not to say it's not achievable.

Also, those few months targeting a 5k pb sets you up so well for your marathon block.

Love your answer to the what would you have done diff question. The chest infection is way out of your control so discount that, but you're so right about not wanting to change one thing about the day itself. The best thing you can get out of a debut DCM is an amazing day.

Bgiraffe

Would anyone have any advice regarding pilates class for runners which might be available online? After completing DCM (and three marathons in all in last 13 months) some s&C work is definitely required for me. Body is weak is p1ss to be completely honest and constantly getting little niggles and injuries. Enjoyed dabbling in pilates over the years and think it would be a big help. I'd say every single marathoner, in reality, could probably benefit from a session or two a week if they're not doing it, or some other S&C stuff, already.

Kellygirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878991#Comment_119878991

Check out this website. Worth downloading the app. It’s €7 for the first month with the code trial50. I know the guy who set it up and he knows his stuff. He’s a physio and a runner and big into strength work.

https://www.runningbuddytraining.com/

I realise it’s not Pilates but hopefully if interest anyway.

Bgiraffe

That looks very interesting. Thanks a lot for the steer. Injury free running here I come!

Kellygirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879588#Comment_119879588

Worth a follow on Instagram at least anyway. He puts up a lot of stuff.

marathon2022

There's some great info here, fair play to Lazare for giving your time and knowledge up for others. A fine thing. I've nothing in the way of detail to offer but I'm 100% behind the idea of consistency, try and keep a moderate level of activity through the cold winter months and it will pay big dividends come spring.

Good luck to everyone

Dublin334

Quick Question. In the base plan it has '60 min progression (Easy to MP)'. Is MP - Moderate Pace?...and are you meant to start as EASY pace and gradually increase pace over the 60 mins or is it just to keep the pace in that range.

Lambay island

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880772#Comment_119880772

I believe its marathon pace and yes a gradual increase to it.. work your way into in to it.

E.coli

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880772#Comment_119880772

For the plan here MP refers to marathon pace

This should equate roughly to in around the "tempo" bottom range but don't get too hung up on the exact figures the main aim of this session is to finish roughly at a comfortably strong effort but it should all remain in control.

The main aim of the base phase is to have strong efforts without killing yourself so everything should remain in control. Aerobic base is something which is developed with sub maximal efforts so it is more important to try and have good form than bust you gut trying to hit set paces

Pawwed Rig

The acronyms always get me aswell. I've no idea what most of them mean 🤣🏃🏿‍♂️

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882383#Comment_119882383

In the interests of 'A Deeper Understanding', that's an excellent prompt. Here's a few of the more common ones:

MP = Marathon Pace

PMP = Planned Marathon Pace (i.e. not necessarily where your fitness is at right now). People often confuse this with MP.

HMP = Half-marathon pace. Same caveat as above

LT = Lactate Threshold. When you are producing as much lactate as your body can clear. Beyond this your legs start to fill with lead.

LR = Long Run. If you’re a sprinter, this could be a 10 minute jog. For the rest of us, maybe anything more than 80 mins or 10 miles (which ever comes first).

LSR = Long Slow Run. For many runners, it’s not slow enough.

HTFU = Harden (or is it Hurry?) The F*** Up. There’s always someone holding a sign up at DCM that says this.

E = Easy. Although not always as easy as it should be. Some confuse this with MP.

H = Hard. Speaks for itself. You’ll want to stop ASAP.

(ASAP = As Soon As Possible)

T = Tempo (which on its own can mean any number of things) “Comfortably hard” is how some describe it. A pace you could hold for about an hour, but no longer. If you're doing a Hanson marathon plan, T=MP. If it's a Hanson half marathon plan, T=HMP.

M = MP 😜

PB = Personal Best. These tend to happen a lot early in your running career and hardly at all later on. 😁

SB = Season Best. A consolation for not getting a PB.

GFA = Good For Age. Not always that good, but sometimes it is.

BQ = Boston Qualifier (ie the GFA time that gets you into the race without having to pay Sports Travel International).

LQ = London Qualifier

PFO = Please F*** Off (the email you get from London or Berlin to tell you you haven't been successful in the ballot). It hurts, but you eventually get used to it.

There's loads more, I'm sure people will chime in with a few others. 😉

Lazare

🤣🤣🤣

Beautiful @Murph_D

Lazare

There's a few more acronyms from the plans themselves that we'll go through in detail.

Pawwed Rig

Thanks @Murph_D

I was always confused by why all the runners were so interested in the Good Friday Agreement (GFA)

If this list could be stuck in the OP that'd be amazeballs

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883193#Comment_119883193

😄😄

It's too late for me to edit the OP unfort.

Would screenshotting it work for you?